Episode 96: Common Mistakes That Startups Often Make With Tanya Osensky

1
00:00:00,419 --> 00:00:03,002
(bright music)

2
00:00:04,860 --> 00:00:08,610
- Welcome back to the Get
Unstuck and On Target podcast.

3
00:00:08,610 --> 00:00:10,680
I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders

4
00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,400
and we help growing companies,
especially manufacturers,

5
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,000
improve their people,
process and planning systems

6
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,480
so they can scale smarter and faster.

7
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,600
Joining me today is Tanya Osensky.

8
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,203
Tanya is a corporate attorney

9
00:00:26,203 --> 00:00:29,190
and a fractional general counsel.

10
00:00:29,190 --> 00:00:32,130
After over 20 years
working inside the business

11
00:00:32,130 --> 00:00:35,970
as an in-house attorney for
large companies and institutions

12
00:00:35,970 --> 00:00:38,790
such as Georgia Pacific and Georgia Tech.

13
00:00:38,790 --> 00:00:42,960
Tanya formed her own law firm in 2017

14
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,160
to bring her unique
in-house counsel insights

15
00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:49,980
to smaller companies and entrepreneurs.

16
00:00:49,980 --> 00:00:52,290
Now she's a business owner herself,

17
00:00:52,290 --> 00:00:55,620
so she can much better
relate to her clients

18
00:00:55,620 --> 00:00:59,460
and understand the
challenges that they face.

19
00:00:59,460 --> 00:01:01,710
And it's my pleasure to welcome you.

20
00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:03,905
Good to have you on this podcast.

21
00:01:03,905 --> 00:01:05,893
- Thank you so much, and I
appreciate you having me.

22
00:01:05,893 --> 00:01:07,980
Thank you, Mike.

23
00:01:07,980 --> 00:01:10,080
- What I know about your background

24
00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:11,250
that kind of mirrors mine

25
00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:14,940
is you came out of a corporate
in-house general counsel,

26
00:01:14,940 --> 00:01:17,760
whereas I came out of corporate HR.

27
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,300
You worked for some very
impressive companies,

28
00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:25,470
but you have decided that you
wanted to open your own firm

29
00:01:25,470 --> 00:01:29,340
and particularly bring
your legal expertise

30
00:01:29,340 --> 00:01:33,630
to smaller companies and
work of entrepreneurs.

31
00:01:33,630 --> 00:01:36,450
What was the lure to begin working with

32
00:01:36,450 --> 00:01:38,880
smaller growing businesses?

33
00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,670
- I've always had an
entrepreneurial spirit myself

34
00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:45,630
as a first generation immigrant,

35
00:01:45,630 --> 00:01:47,430
it's sort of like the expectation

36
00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:52,430
of that kind of population
to be entrepreneurial.

37
00:01:52,470 --> 00:01:54,600
And I was no exception,

38
00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,260
but I spent a lot of time
in the corporate world

39
00:01:58,260 --> 00:02:02,820
and kind of seeing how business
was managed from the inside.

40
00:02:02,820 --> 00:02:07,080
A lot of lawyers who have
only ever worked in law firms

41
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,420
don't get that kind of perspective.

42
00:02:09,420 --> 00:02:14,370
They are just legal counsel.
They only provide legal advice.

43
00:02:14,370 --> 00:02:17,610
They don't see how the business
operates from the inside

44
00:02:17,610 --> 00:02:19,980
as well as in-house lawyers do

45
00:02:19,980 --> 00:02:22,320
because they represent the company,

46
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,560
they have to understand all
the functions of the company

47
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,480
and how the business works,

48
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,750
as well as the whole industry
that the business is in.

49
00:02:30,750 --> 00:02:34,080
So it's a completely different
perspective for the lawyer

50
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:39,080
and it inspired me to also
wanna be a business owner

51
00:02:39,150 --> 00:02:42,120
because I really enjoyed
seeing the business side

52
00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,430
of my corporate client,

53
00:02:44,430 --> 00:02:48,393
and I wanted to have more
of a hand in that myself.

54
00:02:49,860 --> 00:02:50,693
- In my intro,

55
00:02:50,693 --> 00:02:55,670
I mentioned that you work with
small to mid sized companies,

56
00:02:56,580 --> 00:02:59,940
and in particular, excuse me, I apologize.

57
00:02:59,940 --> 00:03:03,390
I wanted to spend a little
bit of time about startups

58
00:03:03,390 --> 00:03:05,791
and I know that that's one of the areas

59
00:03:05,791 --> 00:03:08,760
that you have developed some expertise in.

60
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,310
And particularly what we wanna do is

61
00:03:11,310 --> 00:03:14,640
talk about what are those type of mistakes

62
00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,560
that you see time and time again

63
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,670
that those folks who are
starting companies tend to make?

64
00:03:20,670 --> 00:03:23,040
And I asked that question
in the large part

65
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,560
because we've got a lot of entrepreneurs

66
00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,870
who are listening to this podcast.

67
00:03:27,870 --> 00:03:31,290
- Yes, I know it's a very common thing

68
00:03:31,290 --> 00:03:32,400
that people talk about.

69
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,610
And what I see the most often

70
00:03:35,610 --> 00:03:39,528
are entrepreneurs who don't
budget for legal expenses.

71
00:03:39,528 --> 00:03:43,890
They come up with a great
business idea and a business plan

72
00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:45,120
they work super hard on it.

73
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,790
They make a budget for marketing,

74
00:03:47,790 --> 00:03:52,790
they make a budget for
online presence and brand

75
00:03:54,450 --> 00:03:56,520
and marketing and stuff

76
00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,690
but very rarely do they
budget for the boring stuff,

77
00:04:00,690 --> 00:04:03,060
the accountants, the lawyers,

78
00:04:03,060 --> 00:04:06,750
the things that build the
foundation for a healthy business.

79
00:04:06,750 --> 00:04:08,790
And it's especially important

80
00:04:08,790 --> 00:04:12,840
when they are trying to found
a company with someone else.

81
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,724
So when a person is alone
finding, starting a company,

82
00:04:17,724 --> 00:04:20,190
there are certain things
that need to be done,

83
00:04:20,190 --> 00:04:24,690
but it's fine. I guess
it's okay to do it yourself

84
00:04:24,690 --> 00:04:26,430
or a lot of it yourself,

85
00:04:26,430 --> 00:04:29,700
but when you are going into
business with another person,

86
00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:32,910
it becomes really critical
to budget that time

87
00:04:32,910 --> 00:04:37,740
for really good advisory
services with a financial person

88
00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:39,780
and a legal person

89
00:04:39,780 --> 00:04:44,640
because there are so
many problems that arise.

90
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,240
And I see unfortunately every single day

91
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,310
problems among founders

92
00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:53,250
because they did not
consider things upfront

93
00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:57,960
and put the right structure
for the company in place,

94
00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,290
have the right agreement
between the founders

95
00:05:01,290 --> 00:05:06,290
that help them get through
problems in the future.

96
00:05:06,420 --> 00:05:10,260
So then they end up spending
a lot more money down the road

97
00:05:10,260 --> 00:05:11,820
because they don't have a framework

98
00:05:11,820 --> 00:05:13,080
for dealing with these things

99
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,750
that they came up with in advance.

100
00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:16,980
And it is an investment,

101
00:05:16,980 --> 00:05:20,340
but it's definitely a lot
cheaper than litigation.

102
00:05:20,340 --> 00:05:24,300
So it's a no brainer from risk perspective

103
00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:27,300
that it's important to
budget a few thousand dollars

104
00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:32,160
at the startup stage, get it
all correctly put in place,

105
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,450
and then you won't have
the terrible problems

106
00:05:36,450 --> 00:05:39,063
that many people get
when they don't do that.

107
00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:42,300
- So can you help me understand,

108
00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:46,470
to establish good legal foundation,

109
00:05:46,470 --> 00:05:48,120
what are the kinds of things

110
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,930
that a person who is
considering starting a business,

111
00:05:51,930 --> 00:05:53,580
perhaps with a business partner,

112
00:05:53,580 --> 00:05:56,490
what are the absolutes that
you advise your clients

113
00:05:56,490 --> 00:05:59,670
must be in place upfront?

114
00:05:59,670 --> 00:06:02,900
- So the most important
thing they must have in place

115
00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:05,190
is an agreement between them.

116
00:06:05,190 --> 00:06:09,270
It's even more important
than creating a legal entity

117
00:06:09,270 --> 00:06:12,570
like an LLC, which also is important,

118
00:06:12,570 --> 00:06:14,700
but having the agreement between them

119
00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:17,250
about how they want to work together,

120
00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:21,120
what's gonna happen if
one of them wants to leave

121
00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:22,800
or one of them dies

122
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,430
can one of them sell their
interest in the company

123
00:06:26,430 --> 00:06:30,370
or do they have to have
certain restrictions on sale

124
00:06:31,350 --> 00:06:35,550
all of these scenarios that
people don't think about beyond,

125
00:06:35,550 --> 00:06:37,830
Okay, we wanna go into business together

126
00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:40,620
and we're gonna divide everything up 50/50

127
00:06:40,620 --> 00:06:43,326
or 60/40 or whatever it is.

128
00:06:43,326 --> 00:06:47,790
But there's a lot more that
needs to be decided upon

129
00:06:47,790 --> 00:06:51,600
than just how you're gonna
divide up the profits a lot more.

130
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,930
So, that's the most important thing.

131
00:06:54,930 --> 00:06:58,200
And then I see, after all of those things

132
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,800
have been established and
everybody is going forward,

133
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,800
they start hiring people
or workers to help them out

134
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,410
in the business because
you are beyond the point

135
00:07:10,410 --> 00:07:13,143
where you can do everything by yourself.

136
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,890
The next mistake I see
a lot of businesses make

137
00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:20,280
is hiring workers without thinking

138
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,560
through proper classification of workers,

139
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,580
whether they are employees
or independent contractors.

140
00:07:26,580 --> 00:07:28,837
And it's very attractive to just say,

141
00:07:28,837 --> 00:07:31,890
"Oh, so and so is an
independent contractor,

142
00:07:31,890 --> 00:07:35,730
so I can save on those payroll
taxes and all of this stuff."

143
00:07:35,730 --> 00:07:39,960
But that's just not how
the law works in this area.

144
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,593
It's not what you say
that the relationship is,

145
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,760
they actually look at
the relationship itself

146
00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,310
and decide whether it
should be an employee.

147
00:07:50,310 --> 00:07:53,760
And if you don't do that
correctly from the beginning,

148
00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,720
you're exposing your company
to a huge amount of fines

149
00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,990
and penalties when,

150
00:08:00,990 --> 00:08:02,820
just do it right from the first place

151
00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:06,120
would've avoided a whole
host of problems later on.

152
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,730
So that's another huge
mistake I see companies make

153
00:08:08,730 --> 00:08:12,033
early on in their existence.

154
00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,230
- Now, you pointed out,
it's a good problem

155
00:08:16,230 --> 00:08:17,670
when the business is growing

156
00:08:17,670 --> 00:08:20,760
and you have to bring
others to help with that,

157
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,220
but if you just assume

158
00:08:23,220 --> 00:08:26,070
that these folks are
independent contractors,

159
00:08:26,070 --> 00:08:27,930
you could perhaps get by with that.

160
00:08:27,930 --> 00:08:30,780
But in the event that that is challenged,

161
00:08:30,780 --> 00:08:32,160
I think what you were saying

162
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,700
is that you're subject
to a number of things.

163
00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:36,533
- Yeah.

164
00:08:36,533 --> 00:08:41,000
- Penalties, fines, and they
can go back on and recover.

165
00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:45,660
Can they not?
- They can.

166
00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:49,440
They can go back and recover
from the very beginning.

167
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,830
And one of the worst things
about using employees

168
00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:55,898
and contractors in a lackadaisical manner

169
00:08:55,898 --> 00:09:00,060
that even goes beyond
these kinds of scary things

170
00:09:00,060 --> 00:09:03,360
like fines, is the intellectual property.

171
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:08,190
Let's say you hire a marketing person

172
00:09:08,190 --> 00:09:11,190
or any other kind of worker

173
00:09:11,190 --> 00:09:13,473
that creates things for the company.

174
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,160
The law is that unless you have a contract

175
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,540
that says otherwise,

176
00:09:18,540 --> 00:09:22,260
that person is gonna own their creation.

177
00:09:22,260 --> 00:09:25,709
So you have to have the
right agreement with them

178
00:09:25,709 --> 00:09:30,420
if you wanna own what
they've created for you

179
00:09:30,420 --> 00:09:33,060
that you've paid for and you should own

180
00:09:33,060 --> 00:09:35,280
but that's not how the law is set up.

181
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,620
So it's very important to think carefully

182
00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:39,810
through those kinds of things.

183
00:09:39,810 --> 00:09:43,110
And once you've created
those basic templates

184
00:09:43,110 --> 00:09:46,200
that you can use for your
contractors or employees,

185
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,320
you've got your customer agreements,

186
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,480
you've got your website
terms and conditions

187
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:52,860
and all of those things,

188
00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:56,040
then you probably won't
need an attorney like me

189
00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:57,690
for a very long time

190
00:09:57,690 --> 00:10:01,110
until some new stage
of development happens

191
00:10:01,110 --> 00:10:02,340
for the company.

192
00:10:02,340 --> 00:10:05,580
But I guess my point is that

193
00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:09,390
entrepreneurs should plan
for these basic few things

194
00:10:09,390 --> 00:10:11,460
from the beginning and budget for that

195
00:10:11,460 --> 00:10:12,450
from the beginning

196
00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:16,263
because it's an important
area to invest in.

197
00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:18,990
- You know, we've
started this conversation

198
00:10:18,990 --> 00:10:23,430
talking about mistakes that
startups oftentimes make,

199
00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:25,770
and you've given two examples of things

200
00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:30,240
that by investing upfront,
have the conversation

201
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,480
put what's agreed to in writing

202
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,441
it can avoid a lot of potential
heartache in the future.

203
00:10:38,441 --> 00:10:39,274
- Yes.

204
00:10:39,274 --> 00:10:41,280
- And then you've also kind of pointed out

205
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,330
that with success then
comes new sets of questions,

206
00:10:45,330 --> 00:10:46,710
but one thing I like about you

207
00:10:46,710 --> 00:10:50,070
is that you're relatively transparent.

208
00:10:50,070 --> 00:10:51,090
What you're saying is,

209
00:10:51,090 --> 00:10:53,373
if you're willing to do
these things upfront,

210
00:10:54,510 --> 00:10:57,090
they might not need you for a while.

211
00:10:57,090 --> 00:10:59,610
And what I love about
your transparency too

212
00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:02,430
is that when you go to your website,

213
00:11:02,430 --> 00:11:04,830
something, I don't know
if I've ever seen before,

214
00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:08,130
there's a tab that kinda
lists fee structure.

215
00:11:08,130 --> 00:11:09,054
- Yep.

216
00:11:09,054 --> 00:11:13,050
- At least for me, that strikes
me as being very unusual.

217
00:11:13,050 --> 00:11:14,520
What prompted you to go ahead

218
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,520
and just be that forthright with people

219
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,680
who don't even talk to you?

220
00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:21,330
They go to your website first.

221
00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:23,400
- Well, yeah, and I think
that that would be great.

222
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,650
If somebody goes to my website

223
00:11:25,650 --> 00:11:28,021
and sees that my fee structure

224
00:11:28,021 --> 00:11:31,140
is not a good fit for their business,

225
00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:35,220
that's perfectly fine, then
they can make that decision.

226
00:11:35,220 --> 00:11:38,550
I believe that the client
or potential client

227
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:41,130
is the one who makes the
decision whether or not,

228
00:11:41,130 --> 00:11:45,780
and who to hire as their
advisor, including myself.

229
00:11:45,780 --> 00:11:47,700
I believe in transparency.

230
00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:52,560
I also hate it when service
providers are not transparent

231
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:55,860
about their pricing because
it's more work on me.

232
00:11:55,860 --> 00:11:58,590
I have to call, I have to
go through the whole spiel

233
00:11:58,590 --> 00:12:00,090
and explain what I need,

234
00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:02,010
and then they like come
up with some number

235
00:12:02,010 --> 00:12:04,350
off maybe the top of their head

236
00:12:04,350 --> 00:12:07,470
and who knows if that
is how they feel today

237
00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:10,860
or if that's really their normal number.

238
00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:14,100
And so, it just feels a little colludy

239
00:12:14,100 --> 00:12:16,764
I don't know if that's a real word or not,

240
00:12:16,764 --> 00:12:18,840
but I wanna avoid all of that.

241
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,040
I wanna work with clients that
I feel are a good fit for me,

242
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,820
and I also want them to feel
that I'm a good fit for them.

243
00:12:26,820 --> 00:12:29,973
And if that means some
people will automatically,

244
00:12:31,380 --> 00:12:35,040
cross me off their list based
on my prices, that's okay.

245
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:36,240
That's their decision.

246
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,593
They get to decide who
they work with, not me.

247
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:40,860
- We're talking about fit

248
00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:44,610
and one of the things we discuss is,

249
00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:46,560
are the prices you charge

250
00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,750
keeping with what they're
kind of expecting.

251
00:12:48,750 --> 00:12:53,730
What else goes into deciding
a good fit with an attorney?

252
00:12:53,730 --> 00:12:56,733
What else should people
listening be mindful of?

253
00:12:57,763 --> 00:13:02,763
- I think that there are some
people who hire an attorney

254
00:13:03,420 --> 00:13:05,940
to just basically be like a secretary.

255
00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:08,760
I'm gonna tell you what I
want you to put in here,

256
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,350
and you just do what I say.

257
00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:12,030
I don't really wanna hear you

258
00:13:12,030 --> 00:13:14,970
or your opinion about what I'm doing.

259
00:13:14,970 --> 00:13:17,910
That is not where I add
the most value, right?

260
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:20,700
The value that I bring to a client

261
00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:25,700
is not the piece of paper that
I produce, it's my advice.

262
00:13:25,830 --> 00:13:28,080
The fees I charge are for the advice,

263
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,600
the piece of paper that comes out of it

264
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,820
is like the ultimate cherry

265
00:13:32,820 --> 00:13:36,960
but that's not the main
thing that I charge for.

266
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,870
I charge for the value
of my experience, advice

267
00:13:39,870 --> 00:13:41,850
I've been an attorney for almost 30 years.

268
00:13:41,850 --> 00:13:43,800
I've been doing this a long time,

269
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,680
and it's worth something.

270
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,430
And I think that if a
client does not respect

271
00:13:50,430 --> 00:13:54,030
or appreciate that, if they
just want me to be as scribe,

272
00:13:54,030 --> 00:13:56,250
that's not gonna be a good relationship

273
00:13:56,250 --> 00:13:59,793
and that's not what I'm here to do.

274
00:14:01,170 --> 00:14:03,180
That would not fulfill my purpose,

275
00:14:03,180 --> 00:14:06,570
and it would not serve them
because as an attorney,

276
00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:09,450
you have certain ethical obligations

277
00:14:09,450 --> 00:14:13,290
you could potentially
have malpractice issues

278
00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:17,043
if something happens that
goes off the wrong way.

279
00:14:18,210 --> 00:14:21,270
And an attorney's role is
not to just do whatever

280
00:14:21,270 --> 00:14:22,623
the client says.

281
00:14:24,030 --> 00:14:25,890
- We've started this conversation

282
00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:28,350
around the notion of starting a business

283
00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:31,440
and how important it is to
get those foundational pieces

284
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,060
in place.

285
00:14:33,060 --> 00:14:37,560
As a company continues to operate

286
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,560
where do you find
entrepreneurs next go awry

287
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:44,880
from a legal standpoint?

288
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,950
- As the company keeps growing,

289
00:14:46,950 --> 00:14:50,070
the next issues that I see more often

290
00:14:50,070 --> 00:14:52,020
are employment related issues

291
00:14:52,020 --> 00:14:53,910
and I'm not an employment lawyer,

292
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:58,910
but I can help manage other
employment lawyers for clients,

293
00:15:01,299 --> 00:15:06,299
because I know how outside
lawyers should be managed

294
00:15:06,450 --> 00:15:09,090
and other issues that come around a lot,

295
00:15:09,090 --> 00:15:11,160
are just general contracts,

296
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,860
not documenting regular contracts

297
00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:16,380
and relationships correctly.

298
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:18,390
I see a lot of people

299
00:15:18,390 --> 00:15:23,390
just kind of work on a verbal
arrangement kind of basis.

300
00:15:24,750 --> 00:15:27,570
It's a recipe for problems.

301
00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:29,070
And then I see people

302
00:15:29,070 --> 00:15:31,830
not thinking about their exit strategy.

303
00:15:31,830 --> 00:15:35,040
So if you're gonna start a
company right from the beginning,

304
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:36,360
you should be thinking about

305
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,480
how are you gonna exit the company.

306
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,380
And that really colors
how you set things up

307
00:15:43,380 --> 00:15:45,090
from the beginning.

308
00:15:45,090 --> 00:15:49,470
A company is worth a lot more
money and is valued higher

309
00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:52,380
if you do certain things
all along the way.

310
00:15:52,380 --> 00:15:55,410
So, that's like an ongoing responsibility

311
00:15:55,410 --> 00:15:56,430
that the company has.

312
00:15:56,430 --> 00:15:58,560
It needs to document its contracts,

313
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:03,330
it needs to have corporate
governance cleaned up.

314
00:16:03,330 --> 00:16:06,180
It needs to have its
financial records cleaned up

315
00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:08,880
and then it'll be worth
a higher purchase price,

316
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,020
which is really the goal for most people

317
00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:15,843
when they sell their company,
get the maximum value.

318
00:16:17,130 --> 00:16:20,160
- I'm so glad you brought
that up and that is,

319
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,580
starting a business, the
focus is getting it going.

320
00:16:23,580 --> 00:16:25,590
And I would think that they'll say,

321
00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:30,590
that's in the distant future
and you're encouraging us.

322
00:16:30,690 --> 00:16:31,890
Don't put that off.

323
00:16:31,890 --> 00:16:36,390
Be thinking now what that
exit strategy would be.

324
00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:40,380
I get into exit strategies
from the people side.

325
00:16:40,380 --> 00:16:45,150
How are you preparing the team
to assume what you're doing

326
00:16:45,150 --> 00:16:48,720
when you decide to move
on to something else?

327
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,630
You're describing preparing them legally

328
00:16:51,630 --> 00:16:54,540
and operationally for the same thing.

329
00:16:54,540 --> 00:16:55,383
- Exactly.

330
00:16:59,790 --> 00:17:04,180
- You therefore are
getting calls from clients

331
00:17:05,459 --> 00:17:08,730
you said you're not an employment lawyer,

332
00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:12,030
but you've worked with
lots of employment lawyers.

333
00:17:12,030 --> 00:17:14,490
Do you find that when issues arise,

334
00:17:14,490 --> 00:17:17,433
it automatically requires
an employment lawyer?

335
00:17:19,740 --> 00:17:23,910
- Sadly these days, the way our country is

336
00:17:23,910 --> 00:17:26,670
and how litigious everything is

337
00:17:26,670 --> 00:17:30,100
and how much motion is
wrapped up in employment

338
00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:33,600
I would say most of the time, yes,

339
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,600
because it's just an area that
is so ripe for legal problems

340
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:43,530
and unfortunately employees feel emotional

341
00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:47,040
about their situation and
the employer or manager

342
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,190
also feel emotional about their role

343
00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:52,770
so it's a very highly charged issue.

344
00:17:52,770 --> 00:17:56,880
And every state's laws are so different

345
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,853
that you really need
someone who is experienced

346
00:18:00,853 --> 00:18:03,120
in that one area.

347
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:06,810
Like I would not trust a
lawyer who does real estate

348
00:18:06,810 --> 00:18:10,800
and employment law and
wills and personal injury.

349
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,983
And by the way, also contracts.

350
00:18:14,850 --> 00:18:19,850
Illegal is extremely hyper
concentrated in expertise

351
00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:24,030
and especially an area
like employment law.

352
00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:27,720
Someone who does not practice
in that area all the time

353
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,020
is not gonna have the
knowledge that you would need

354
00:18:31,020 --> 00:18:35,010
to support your business the right way.

355
00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:39,150
It's not a ad hoc kind of law practice.

356
00:18:39,150 --> 00:18:41,790
- Yes, one thing we did not talk about,

357
00:18:41,790 --> 00:18:44,657
but it goes back to when
you're starting your business

358
00:18:44,657 --> 00:18:48,990
and that is, where should
you register your business?

359
00:18:48,990 --> 00:18:52,348
I get the sense that there's
oftentimes a lot of confusion

360
00:18:52,348 --> 00:18:55,110
on that one topic.

361
00:18:55,110 --> 00:18:56,730
Can you kind of elaborate on that?

362
00:18:56,730 --> 00:18:58,530
- Yeah, all the time.

363
00:18:58,530 --> 00:19:01,410
People Google and get their
legal advice from Google

364
00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:05,100
way too many times, and
then they read up and say,

365
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:09,630
Oh, Delaware or Nevada or whatever state

366
00:19:09,630 --> 00:19:13,410
is the latest cool place
to register your company.

367
00:19:13,410 --> 00:19:18,410
And unfortunately, it's
kind of a BS kind of advice.

368
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,710
The place to register your company

369
00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:25,260
is where it's gonna make its money

370
00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:28,560
because if I'm doing business in Georgia,

371
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,880
for example, and I register
my company in Delaware,

372
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,880
I'm creating a new legal
person in Delaware,

373
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,510
a legal entity is considered
a person under the law.

374
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:42,660
So that person before
they can conduct business

375
00:19:42,660 --> 00:19:47,263
in Georgia must register
in Georgia as a foreign LLC

376
00:19:48,180 --> 00:19:49,620
or a foreign corporation.

377
00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:53,820
So now you have to maintain
two different registrations

378
00:19:53,820 --> 00:19:58,020
and pay two different
registration fees, taxes,

379
00:19:58,020 --> 00:20:01,800
and be aware of the laws
of two different states

380
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,693
for absolutely no reason.

381
00:20:05,370 --> 00:20:08,220
I get this question all the time

382
00:20:08,220 --> 00:20:10,710
especially when somebody's thinking

383
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:15,148
I am going to sell to VC and
I'm going to become public,

384
00:20:15,148 --> 00:20:17,400
and all of those things are great,

385
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,510
and maybe it's true that
for certain kind of plans,

386
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:23,280
it is good to have a corporation

387
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,400
and it may be required by investors,

388
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,360
certain investors that it
be registered in Delaware,

389
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:34,980
but you need to talk about it with a CPA

390
00:20:34,980 --> 00:20:37,590
because at the startup stage

391
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:40,470
there may be more tax advantages

392
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:43,440
to forming in your local jurisdiction.

393
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,730
And then when that incredible
investor comes along

394
00:20:47,730 --> 00:20:50,460
and demands that you be in Delaware,

395
00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:53,400
you can transfer your entity to Delaware,

396
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:54,990
you can convert your entity

397
00:20:54,990 --> 00:20:59,190
to whatever is important at the time.

398
00:20:59,190 --> 00:21:04,190
So I wouldn't do something for
some future potential event

399
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,540
that may or may never happen

400
00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:08,760
because you can always make changes.

401
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,640
It's not set in stone what you do today.

402
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,220
You can convert your legal
entity to another state,

403
00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:17,010
you can convert it from
a corporation to an LLC

404
00:21:17,010 --> 00:21:18,540
and vice versa.

405
00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:21,600
You can change the name of
it, you can just do a lot.

406
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,580
There's a lot more flexibility.

407
00:21:23,580 --> 00:21:28,580
So I always advise to start
with close to home, make it

408
00:21:29,238 --> 00:21:34,238
usually LLCs because they
are the most flexible entity

409
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,560
and you can elect to be
taxed as a corporation

410
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,980
or taxed as a partnership
or taxed as whatever.

411
00:21:40,980 --> 00:21:45,980
People don't always understand
that S corp and C corp

412
00:21:46,590 --> 00:21:50,910
and LLC are not related to the same thing.

413
00:21:50,910 --> 00:21:55,410
Tax status and legal entity
are not the same thing.

414
00:21:55,410 --> 00:21:59,100
So it's confusing and even
accountants don't talk about it

415
00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:04,100
the right way a lot of times
and LLC is very flexible.

416
00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:07,260
You should form your LLC to start with

417
00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:08,580
in the state where you live

418
00:22:08,580 --> 00:22:10,410
and where you're gonna make money

419
00:22:10,410 --> 00:22:13,470
and then you can change your tax status.

420
00:22:13,470 --> 00:22:16,380
You can have your LLC
taxed in a different way,

421
00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:19,770
if that's appropriate, and
when that becomes appropriate.

422
00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:22,470
And then you can convert it to Delaware

423
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:25,560
if some multimillion dollar
investment opportunity

424
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,330
comes along your way and you're like,

425
00:22:27,330 --> 00:22:29,013
you have to have a Delaware.

426
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,330
- For folks who listen to this podcast,

427
00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:36,720
they probably recognize
none of the questions

428
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,080
that I'm asking you or
giving to you in advance.

429
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,300
Quite frankly, I don't
know many of the questions

430
00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:43,770
because they're based
on the kinds of things

431
00:22:43,770 --> 00:22:45,330
that you're sharing with us.

432
00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:48,570
Boy, this has been very
informative thus far.

433
00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:51,450
You've had an opportunity to
work in a corporate setting.

434
00:22:51,450 --> 00:22:54,690
You now work with your own law firm,

435
00:22:54,690 --> 00:22:57,510
working with businesses
and helping them start

436
00:22:57,510 --> 00:23:00,330
helping them grow, help
them deal with issues

437
00:23:00,330 --> 00:23:03,450
that kind of come along with that.

438
00:23:03,450 --> 00:23:05,220
Can you share an example

439
00:23:05,220 --> 00:23:09,060
where perhaps either you
or a client got stuck

440
00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:12,033
and when that happened, what
did it take to get unstuck?

441
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:14,793
- That's a tough one.

442
00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:18,980
I'm dealing with a matter now

443
00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:21,180
or I just finished
dealing with a matter now

444
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:25,710
where I had a client
who started a business

445
00:23:25,710 --> 00:23:29,010
right before Covid and
it was very successful

446
00:23:29,010 --> 00:23:33,510
and then Covid hit and it
almost tanked his business.

447
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:36,090
He was on the verge of filing bankruptcy.

448
00:23:36,090 --> 00:23:40,560
He was this close to
walking away with nothing.

449
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,050
And then as we started
recovering from Covid,

450
00:23:43,050 --> 00:23:44,940
he got a great offer.

451
00:23:44,940 --> 00:23:48,390
Somebody came and offered
him a few million dollars

452
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:49,560
to buy him out.

453
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,560
So he was super excited and as we started,

454
00:23:55,950 --> 00:23:59,820
I started working with
him on that transaction.

455
00:23:59,820 --> 00:24:04,130
He became very attached, he
became stuck to this deal

456
00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:09,130
and unfortunately, the other
party was kind of a bully,

457
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,630
in a lot of ways, very inflexible,

458
00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:15,420
very like trying to force their terms

459
00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:17,280
and he was so attached to the deal.

460
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,280
He was so stuck on this
mental idea that I came

461
00:24:22,530 --> 00:24:25,350
and this Covid thing could hit me again.

462
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:29,370
I could be faced with the idea
of walking away with nothing

463
00:24:29,370 --> 00:24:31,383
or I can take this deal.

464
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,460
And he was so pressured

465
00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:39,330
and he just started conceding
to everything they wanted,

466
00:24:39,330 --> 00:24:41,580
even though he didn't need to.

467
00:24:41,580 --> 00:24:45,300
His company was already doing well again.

468
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:49,800
And he could have also
marketed the company

469
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,710
to other potential buyers
and gotten other offers,

470
00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:54,090
but he didn't.

471
00:24:54,090 --> 00:24:58,200
He was so attached to this one
offer and just stuck with it.

472
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,883
And they pretty much abused
him during the process.

473
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,720
And it was so bad because he
was also supposed to stay on

474
00:25:10,830 --> 00:25:15,830
for a few years in an employment
capacity after the sale.

475
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,490
And at the end of the deal
when he was signing it

476
00:25:20,490 --> 00:25:24,030
and he was like, the way they treated me,

477
00:25:24,030 --> 00:25:26,140
I cannot wait to quit

478
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,290
but he was obligated to to continue.

479
00:25:31,290 --> 00:25:36,290
And so it was very, very poor
decision making along the way

480
00:25:36,510 --> 00:25:39,780
that led him to this
position of being stuck

481
00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:43,620
and not knowing how to get out of it.

482
00:25:43,620 --> 00:25:48,380
So that was my, hopefully
not a very good example, but.

483
00:25:48,380 --> 00:25:51,060
- I beg to differ, I think
it's an excellent example.

484
00:25:51,060 --> 00:25:54,900
Whereas your client kind
of got stuck to an idea.

485
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:56,040
- Yeah.

486
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,100
- And latching onto that idea,

487
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:03,690
it really compromised him and his position

488
00:26:03,690 --> 00:26:05,640
and it kind of tainted the whole process.

489
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:06,990
- It really did.

490
00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:11,610
And he had me as an advisor
and I tried to do my best,

491
00:26:11,610 --> 00:26:14,730
but he really should have
also had other advisors

492
00:26:14,730 --> 00:26:16,830
besides myself.

493
00:26:16,830 --> 00:26:19,440
I'm just a lawyer, I do words.

494
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,610
He needed advice from
a financial standpoint.

495
00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:26,880
He needed advice from like
an operational standpoint

496
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,800
or like some really more like
an industry kind of advice

497
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,320
because he was mentally stuck to the idea

498
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,800
that he wouldn't be able
to find another buyer.

499
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,900
And I don't think that that's true,

500
00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:42,963
but I don't have the expertise
to convince him of that.

501
00:26:44,368 --> 00:26:46,980
So yeah, he should have
invested in other advisors.

502
00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:50,760
He could have come up with a
much better potentially deal

503
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:51,813
than he did.

504
00:26:53,340 --> 00:26:56,910
- Tanya, you would be
known as a trusted advisor.

505
00:26:56,910 --> 00:26:58,920
You've already mentioned the importance

506
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,425
of having someone advise from
an accounting perspective.

507
00:27:03,425 --> 00:27:08,425
When you're working with
entrepreneurs and they ask,

508
00:27:09,427 --> 00:27:11,760
"who should I surround myself with,

509
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,430
who should my advisors be?"

510
00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:16,230
How do you respond to that question?

511
00:27:17,310 --> 00:27:18,300
- Very good question,

512
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:20,643
'cause I just had this
conversation yesterday.

513
00:27:21,570 --> 00:27:26,570
So I always advise my clients
to have a business attorney

514
00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:30,536
like myself who is experienced
with small business

515
00:27:30,536 --> 00:27:34,870
and transactional issues, but
from a practical perspective

516
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,760
and a CPA who is not just
someone who fills out tax forms

517
00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:46,680
but does planning that
works with small businesses

518
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,110
and advise them on how
to plan and save money

519
00:27:50,970 --> 00:27:53,340
and like a financial person,

520
00:27:53,340 --> 00:27:55,350
whether from their personal life,

521
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:58,300
like a financial advisor
for their personal life

522
00:27:58,300 --> 00:28:02,032
and maybe like a CFO
type person who can help

523
00:28:02,032 --> 00:28:04,770
manage all the financial stuff.

524
00:28:04,770 --> 00:28:05,943
Those are the minimum.

525
00:28:07,175 --> 00:28:10,650
And, of course there's all
kinds of different advisors

526
00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:13,320
and consultants and coaches
on the operational side

527
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,770
and the sales side and the
HR side and everything else.

528
00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:19,320
But I think the minimum
are these financial

529
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,590
and legal advisors who have a big picture

530
00:28:22,590 --> 00:28:23,823
and who are neutral.

531
00:28:25,410 --> 00:28:29,400
We are not gonna be affected
if your business succeeds

532
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,233
or fails.

533
00:28:30,233 --> 00:28:34,770
We're giving you our best advice
based on our own knowledge

534
00:28:34,770 --> 00:28:38,760
and it's like a neutral point of view

535
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,003
that is not invested
in the business itself.

536
00:28:43,860 --> 00:28:48,860
- You came out of working
in very large organizations,

537
00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:54,750
I too came out of working
for very large organizations.

538
00:28:54,750 --> 00:28:56,799
You've chosen and I have chosen

539
00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:01,080
to work with "small to
medium size businesses."

540
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,800
When I tell friends that that's
who I prefer to work with,

541
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,630
I find that they sometimes
scratch their head,

542
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:10,500
Why would you choose a smaller business?

543
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:14,790
For me, my response is
because I get to work with

544
00:29:14,790 --> 00:29:17,610
the decision maker most typically,

545
00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:20,020
and therefore decisions are made quicker

546
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,870
and oftentimes are better because of that.

547
00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:26,497
But when people say,

548
00:29:26,497 --> 00:29:29,970
"Well, why did you choose
to begin working with

549
00:29:29,970 --> 00:29:32,730
and continue working small
to mid-size businesses"

550
00:29:32,730 --> 00:29:37,730
what's the appeal to you as a
lawyer with your own law firm?

551
00:29:39,375 --> 00:29:40,407
- In a lot of ways,

552
00:29:40,407 --> 00:29:44,100
the big humongous companies
are very set in their ways

553
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:49,100
and they have already huge law
departments full of lawyers

554
00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:51,600
who do the day to day legal stuff.

555
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:52,893
So they don't need me.

556
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,810
I like helping people
because I can see the results

557
00:29:57,810 --> 00:30:01,701
of my help in real life
and it makes me feel good

558
00:30:01,701 --> 00:30:05,640
to have helped someone that
otherwise wouldn't have it.

559
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:06,933
That's pretty much it.

560
00:30:07,950 --> 00:30:11,010
- A lawyer is saying,
it makes me feel good.

561
00:30:11,010 --> 00:30:13,050
You're tapping into something

562
00:30:13,050 --> 00:30:15,930
I know lawyers get a
bad rep left and right

563
00:30:15,930 --> 00:30:17,550
until they meet you.

564
00:30:17,550 --> 00:30:21,990
They can see aspects of what
you bring to a relationship.

565
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:25,530
As you kind of reflect
on this conversation,

566
00:30:25,530 --> 00:30:28,170
what do you hope our viewers and listeners

567
00:30:28,170 --> 00:30:29,763
have as takeaways?

568
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,330
- I know that lawyers, everybody
says they hate lawyers,

569
00:30:36,330 --> 00:30:38,193
but they love their lawyer.

570
00:30:39,330 --> 00:30:44,330
So, we have a bad rep
generally, but not individually,

571
00:30:45,390 --> 00:30:48,000
I guess is the way.

572
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,390
The takeaway I think is to pay attention

573
00:30:51,390 --> 00:30:53,223
to the boring stuff.

574
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,940
The marketing and the branding
are all exciting and fun

575
00:30:56,940 --> 00:30:59,130
and sales are exciting and fun,

576
00:30:59,130 --> 00:31:02,430
but without the solid
foundation and the structure

577
00:31:02,430 --> 00:31:04,050
and the neutrality

578
00:31:04,050 --> 00:31:07,680
brought by the financial
and the legal side,

579
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,680
you only have a very
biased view of the company.

580
00:31:13,620 --> 00:31:18,480
It's having the good
foundations, the solid advice,

581
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,480
not advice you necessarily want to hear

582
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,230
is probably the most
valuable advice sometimes.

583
00:31:25,230 --> 00:31:29,370
You have to be surrounded
by people who are not afraid

584
00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:34,080
to say the truth that
you may not wanna hear.

585
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,142
And that's a mark of good leadership

586
00:31:37,142 --> 00:31:40,833
and that's what would help success.

587
00:31:41,730 --> 00:31:43,280
- Hmm, that's beautifully said.

588
00:31:44,910 --> 00:31:47,077
As folks have been listening,
they may be saying,

589
00:31:47,077 --> 00:31:49,050
"Gosh, I'd like to learn a little more.

590
00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:51,840
How do I contact Tanya?"

591
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,780
What's the best way for
folks to reach out to you?

592
00:31:54,780 --> 00:31:58,440
- Thank you, I'm available,
I'm very active on LinkedIn.

593
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,630
I enjoy sharing my content on LinkedIn,

594
00:32:00,630 --> 00:32:02,340
so look me up on there.

595
00:32:02,340 --> 00:32:05,640
I have a website, osenskylaw.com.

596
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,210
You can email me tanya@osenskylaw.com.

597
00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:13,080
Or call me (404) 369-5126.

598
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,660
- We even put the phone number in there.

599
00:32:15,660 --> 00:32:18,030
Now, by the way, spell Osensky please.

600
00:32:18,030 --> 00:32:21,900
- O-S-E-N-S-K-Y.

601
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:22,733
- Okay.

602
00:32:22,733 --> 00:32:26,160
We will obviously
include in the show notes

603
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,130
your LinkedIn profile, your website,

604
00:32:29,130 --> 00:32:30,780
and other contact information.

605
00:32:30,780 --> 00:32:32,070
Matter of fact, that's how you and I

606
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:34,050
first came across each other.

607
00:32:34,050 --> 00:32:35,463
It was via LinkedIn.

608
00:32:35,463 --> 00:32:36,296
- Yes.

609
00:32:36,296 --> 00:32:37,665
- And I loved your post.

610
00:32:37,665 --> 00:32:38,498
- Thank you.

611
00:32:38,498 --> 00:32:42,330
- I just find them so
refreshing as a business owner,

612
00:32:42,330 --> 00:32:45,060
I glean from your posts.

613
00:32:45,060 --> 00:32:47,350
So for those who reach out and connect,

614
00:32:47,350 --> 00:32:51,240
you have an opportunity
to see Tanya's post

615
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,430
on a more regular basis.

616
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:54,263
- Thanks Mike.

617
00:32:54,263 --> 00:32:55,096
Thanks so much.

618
00:32:55,096 --> 00:32:55,983
That warms my heart.

619
00:32:57,390 --> 00:32:59,133
- Thank you for being a guest.

620
00:33:00,990 --> 00:33:02,550
- Thank you so much for having me.

621
00:33:02,550 --> 00:33:04,770
I really enjoyed our discussion.

622
00:33:04,770 --> 00:33:05,910
- Well, I've enjoyed it as well.

623
00:33:05,910 --> 00:33:10,320
I also wanna thank our
listeners for joining us today.

624
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,380
We upload the latest
episode every Thursday

625
00:33:13,380 --> 00:33:17,430
to all the major platforms,
including Apple and Spotify.

626
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:20,580
So if you've enjoyed
this episode with Tanya,

627
00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:21,723
please subscribe.

628
00:33:22,620 --> 00:33:24,810
Now I have a question for our listeners.

629
00:33:24,810 --> 00:33:27,090
Are you trying to grow your business

630
00:33:27,090 --> 00:33:29,580
and you wanna make sure
you've got the right people

631
00:33:29,580 --> 00:33:31,590
process and planning systems in place

632
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:33,960
so that you can grow smoothly?

633
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,180
If yes, let's talk.

634
00:33:36,180 --> 00:33:38,160
Head over to unstuck.show

635
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,460
and schedule a quick non-sales call.

636
00:33:41,460 --> 00:33:43,560
We'll talk about your growth goals

637
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,890
and explore practical steps
that you can take immediately

638
00:33:46,890 --> 00:33:48,780
to grow your business.

639
00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:50,970
So I wanna thank you for joining us

640
00:33:50,970 --> 00:33:54,330
and I hope you have picked
up on some tips from Tanya

641
00:33:54,330 --> 00:33:58,170
that will help you get
unstuck and on target.

642
00:33:58,170 --> 00:33:59,572
Until next time.

643
00:33:59,572 --> 00:34:02,155
(bright music)