Episode 95: The Career Toolkit with Mark Herschberg

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(soft music)

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- Welcome back to the Get
Unstuck and On Target podcast.

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I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders

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and we help growing companies,
especially manufacturers,

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improve their people process
and planning systems,

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so they can scale smarter and faster.

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Joining me today from New
York is Mark Herschberg.

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Mark is the author of
"The Career Tool Book:

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Essential Skills for Success
that No One Taught you."

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Mark has spent his career
launching and developing

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new ventures at startups and Fortune 500's

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and in academia.

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He help start MIT's
career success accelerator

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where he teaches annually.

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I don't typically list degrees,

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but Mark the listing of MIT degrees here

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is very, very impressive.

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And that is you have Bachelor
of Science degrees in physics,

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electrical engineering,
and computer science,

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and that was not enough.

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You've gone on,

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you got master degrees

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in electrical engineering
in computer science.

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Did I get that right?

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- You did.

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- Welcome Mark.

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Glad to have you on this podcast today.

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As we were talking before
we hit the record button,

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there's so many things
that we could talk about

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and so we're gonna take a little bit

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of a across the board approach.

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And the first thing I'd like
to kind of get your input on

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is your experience in starting
and scaling companies.

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Tell us a little more
about that experience.

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- When I left MIT,

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I started out going to classic
startups.com era startups,

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and of course we left the .com era,

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but I've still been doing startups.

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Now, I've been sometimes
one of the first 10 people,

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sometimes person number three or seven

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in those organizations,

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often coming in as an executive.

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Sometimes I've come in a little later.

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That might be as I've
gotten their A round funding

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or sometimes they've been around a while

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and now they're a few years down the road.

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They still consider themselves a startup,

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although they're now making
lots of money and I get brought

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in when they've been
stuck or have problems.

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I've done it as a full time person.

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I've done it as a fractional
CTO or fractional CPO,

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Chief Technology or Chief Product Officer.

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And then I've helped those
Fortune 500 companies who wanted

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to innovate but they just
didn't have the skills in house.

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They needed my expertise
and almost some of them

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have said that DNA that I
bring of that startup approach.

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- Mark it's interesting.

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You describe that you work with
startups and sometimes those

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startups are doing very, very
well, but they get stuck.

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What have you found is
the most common ways

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in which startups get stuck?

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- There are two common
problems I see over and over.

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One of those is what
work to get them here,

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doesn't work going forward.

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Now if you think about your company.

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When you are tiny, when you're starting,

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that first sales call,

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it's all hands on deck.

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It's everyone says, okay,

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show up and oh, the client asked for this.

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Can we do that?

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I don't.

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Okay, let's try to make that happen.

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And it's chaotic and
that's fine for the first

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couple of calls, but that doesn't scale.

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The way you get your first
10 customers is different

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from how you need to get your next 90,

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which is different than
for the process needed

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for the next 900.

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And people do get that
with your sales team.

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You say, hey, I can't do all the sales.

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I'm gonna hire up a sales team.

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And you start building
the marketing collateral,

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that's great,

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but it turns out a lot
of internal processes

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also don't scale.

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What works when you're a
team of three engineers

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does not work when you're
a team of 23 engineers.

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That doesn't work for
a team of 53 engineers

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and your marketing team

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and your product team
and your finance team.

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So what happens is you
have all these processes

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and you know they work because
you've been successful.

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That's how you got here.

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Why mess with success,

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but your challenges going
forward will be different.

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And so what often happens
is this all worked

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and then about 12, 18 months ago

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things weren't working well and you're not

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quite sure why because
you didn't change things.

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But the environment which you operate,

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the challenges you faced have changed

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and you then update your processes.

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- Hmm, you know,

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it's interesting you say
that and that is processes.

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It's not very exciting
to talk about processes,

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but in terms of what those could be,

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it could be the whole gamut of processes.

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You mentioned about the size of the teams.

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Have you found that when an organization

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gets to a certain size,

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in this case I'm talking about
employee size versus revenue,

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have you found that there's
certain critical points

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that organizations kind of hit

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that oftentimes lead
to potential problems.

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- A hundred percent.

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Let me give you an example from
engineering, from my field,

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although I've seen this elsewhere.

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When I have four or five engineers,

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you stick them all in a
room together or stick 'em

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in the same place and
someone has a question,

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so she turns around

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her chair and says,
"Hey, what about this?"

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And someone else says,
"Oh, here's how you do it."

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And that's great.

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You don't need a lot of structure
and meetings and overhead.

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When you have a dozen
engineers and she turns around

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in her chair and says," Hey, I'm stuck."

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She's talking to the
people right next to her.

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But someone else on the
other side of the room

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or in a different set of cubicles,

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doesn't hear that and she thinks,

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"Oh, I don't want get up and walk over."

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But that other person should've
been the conversation.

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So at that stage, you hit
your first inflection point.

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The process you need,

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the way people need to
engage has to be different.

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And the first inflection
point for engineering hits

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somewhere around eight to 10 people.

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You can't have anyone can do anything.

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It starts to be a little
more formal and then you hit

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another inflection point
somewhere around 20 to 25 people,

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another around 50.

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And then you start getting into the rule

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of three which says rule of three.

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This is a process management
people management tool

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that says 5, 15, 50,
150, 500, 1500, 5,000,

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basically tripling each time.

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That's what your
organization needs to change.

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Now the rule of three
is a good rule of thumb.

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In fact, if you look at militaries,

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are often organized around that concept.

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But of course for any individual group,

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you have to look at do
these people interact

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a lot versus they're independent.

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A sales team of 20 people,

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you can manage that because
they're all independent,

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they're all working different territories.

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You just need one manager.

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20 people on engineering team.

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It's hard to have one
director managing 20 people,

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'cause they're not all independent.

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So it's the nature of how the
team interacts with itself.

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It's also the external inputs.

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Do you have a lot of people
from other departments

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coming in and asking questions,

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needing help from this team
that you need to coordinate?

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So rule three is a good start,

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but then you have to look
specifically at the processes

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and flow and dynamics of the team

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to know is it really at
15 or is it closer to 10

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or closer to 20?

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- Mark, you are uniquely positioned

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to talk about startups
and I really appreciate

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your explanation of the rule of three.

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Let me contrast startups

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with Fortune 500 sized organizations.

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What might be examples why a
large fortune 500 company needs

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to bringing in Mark Herschberg?

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- The companies were optimized
for different things.

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So let me give you an example.

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I consulted to a very big Fortune
500 company that would get

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sued according to our legal
department, every single day.

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Every day there was a
lawsuit filed against them.

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Now if you're a startup
that's unfathomable,

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You don't get any lawsuit hopefully, ever.

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Not for years.

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If you're a big corporation,

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think of a company the
size of Amazon or Walmart,

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they're getting sued
probably multiple times a day

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and that's everything from
worker's comp and slip and fall,

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I'm sure there's some harassment,
there's product defects,

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just little things.

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These aren't big lawsuits,

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but they get sued all the time

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and they have this big
legal department that says,

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hey, you know what,

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if we are mopping floors and
not putting up the sign saying

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wet floor, this one lawsuit,

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we could see this happen 10 times a day.

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We have to put in some
process to worry about it.

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At a startup company, you wanna sue me?

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Fine, what's gonna happen?

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You're not gonna get anything

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'cause I'm gonna waste my little

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bit of capital on lawyers,
then you win and I go bankrupt.

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We don't worry about getting sued,

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we shouldn't, the big
company, they should.

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So you have different
needs, different priorities.

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And so this is my version of
the "Innovator's Dilemma."

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If you've read that book by
Clayton Christensen, it says,

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"Big companies are looking
at problems and challenges

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that are worth hundreds of
millions or billions of dollars,

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not opportunities and
challenges worth millions

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or tens of millions."

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But the same thing has
to do with your risk,

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with your processes.

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You are not focused on
these smaller things

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or you have something that's focused on,

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hey we have to make sure we've
avoided every $50,000 lawsuit

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because we'll get them 10 times a day

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and at our scale that's a lot.

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So they are oriented to a
different set of problems

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than what they need to do as a startup

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where we say let's build a new brand.

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And you know what?

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If our brand is terrible,
we'll change the name.

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If you're Disney, if you're
IBM, you can't change your name,

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your brand is worth billions.

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I can change the name if
I'm start up all the time.

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So they don't have the mentality
that when we launched this

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new brand, hey we can try it out.

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If it's bad, we'll change it.

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In fact, a place like Disney

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has an army of people protecting that

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brand and so their
processes are well set up

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for what they have but not well set up

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for that rapid innovation.

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- As I'm listening to
you very well explain

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what I think is relatively complex

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and that is you strike me as being almost

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equally adept at startups as Fortune 500s,

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but you clearly differentiated
what might bring you in

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and that's very helpful to know.

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One of the things I wanted
to get into is because you've

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gone into both sized organizations

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and you in your assessment
are looking at talent

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and you're looking at what's available

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and before we hit record button,

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we did this in our pre-interview.

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We were talking about
this notion of upskilling

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and that's a term that you know HR folks

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might just kind of just rattle off

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and people may or may
not know what that means.

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When I use a term upskilling
or when you use that term,

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00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:07,500
what does that mean to you?

257
00:11:08,430 --> 00:11:12,030
- We have employees with
certain capabilities

258
00:11:12,030 --> 00:11:14,670
and we want to improve those capabilities.

259
00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:17,970
Now in particular, we often focus on,

260
00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:20,250
oh we're gonna train you
how to use Excel macro,

261
00:11:20,250 --> 00:11:22,470
so you can make better Excel spreadsheets

262
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:24,240
and yes, very useful.

263
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,820
Or you're a software engineer,
learn a new language,

264
00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:29,850
you're in finance, learn a new
accounting tool, fantastic.

265
00:11:29,850 --> 00:11:33,060
Do that 'cause you're gonna
be using new accounting tools.

266
00:11:33,060 --> 00:11:37,020
But then there are some
universal skills, communication,

267
00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:38,880
leadership, team building,

268
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,850
negotiating and those in
particular tend to give you

269
00:11:41,850 --> 00:11:45,930
a better ROI for the amount
of time invested in them.

270
00:11:45,930 --> 00:11:48,090
And those are the skills
we really wanna see.

271
00:11:48,090 --> 00:11:51,030
And those are the easier ones
to scale because teaching

272
00:11:51,030 --> 00:11:53,100
people that new accounting system,

273
00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:55,440
while that applies to your
five people in finance,

274
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,200
but not the other 95
people in your company,

275
00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,940
but better communication skills,

276
00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:02,400
that's going to apply to everyone.

277
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,250
So if you can invest in these
and there's ways to do it

278
00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:06,663
at little or no cost,

279
00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:09,263
you're going to get a much bigger return.

280
00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:13,050
- If you were to compare upskilling

281
00:12:13,050 --> 00:12:18,050
from a small startup to
a Fortune 500 company,

282
00:12:19,721 --> 00:12:21,660
is the process of assessing that,

283
00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:23,910
is it the same or do
you find it's different?

284
00:12:24,930 --> 00:12:27,183
- I think it's exactly the same.

285
00:12:29,148 --> 00:12:31,581
Now the assessment tools you might use

286
00:12:31,581 --> 00:12:33,750
how you assess 2000 people at once,

287
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:37,560
might be different at a big
company than a small one.

288
00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:40,980
But I'll say to the
assessment specifically,

289
00:12:40,980 --> 00:12:43,200
it's hard to assess these skills.

290
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,080
I can assess how well
you understand chemistry.

291
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,240
I can give you a chemistry
test and see how many questions

292
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,290
you answer correctly,

293
00:12:51,054 --> 00:12:52,380
how well you networked,

294
00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:54,360
how well you lead?

295
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,890
There's no simple type of
formula I can test you on.

296
00:12:58,890 --> 00:13:00,930
There's no fill out this form,

297
00:13:00,930 --> 00:13:04,350
fill in the Scantron and
I'll tabulate the results.

298
00:13:04,350 --> 00:13:07,050
I have to see it and feel it.

299
00:13:07,050 --> 00:13:09,690
And so that part for the
assessment is harder.

300
00:13:09,690 --> 00:13:11,556
But the teaching,

301
00:13:11,556 --> 00:13:13,410
because it's best taught in small units,

302
00:13:13,410 --> 00:13:15,780
that can scale whether
you're a small company

303
00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:16,730
or a large company.

304
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,850
- Now for those who are
watching on YouTube,

305
00:13:20,850 --> 00:13:24,840
they saw me smile because here you are

306
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,640
with a physics degrees,

307
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,050
electrical engineering degrees,

308
00:13:28,050 --> 00:13:31,619
computer science degrees and
you're talking about the type

309
00:13:31,619 --> 00:13:35,283
of thing that kind of
falls into my bailiwick.

310
00:13:36,254 --> 00:13:37,170
You you said that technical training,

311
00:13:37,170 --> 00:13:41,610
yes it is important but the
biggest return on the investment

312
00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:43,380
are these other things you mentioned,

313
00:13:43,380 --> 00:13:46,240
communication skills,
the people skills side

314
00:13:48,284 --> 00:13:50,700
of that upskilling.

315
00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:52,560
Organizations.

316
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,740
We're recording this in early August,

317
00:13:55,740 --> 00:13:59,190
it will probably be more around October.

318
00:13:59,190 --> 00:14:01,020
It's hard to know
exactly where the economy

319
00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:02,400
will be at that point,

320
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,281
but right now there's assumption
is that we may be moving

321
00:14:05,281 --> 00:14:08,340
into some form of a recession,

322
00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:11,460
an economic downturn if you will.

323
00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:16,460
You consult with small
and large companies.

324
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:21,090
What do you advise them
when things get tight?

325
00:14:21,090 --> 00:14:24,720
I always hear that the first
thing to go is training.

326
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,020
Do you see that in in your work as well?

327
00:14:28,020 --> 00:14:29,880
- A hundred percent.

328
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,190
People throw out training,

329
00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:34,770
they throw out investment in people.

330
00:14:34,770 --> 00:14:36,600
And now think about the following,

331
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,410
what is your biggest cost

332
00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:45,410
and what is your biggest
driver of revenue?

333
00:14:45,450 --> 00:14:48,600
Now it may be if you're
a manufacturing company

334
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,010
and everything is turnkey

335
00:14:50,010 --> 00:14:52,890
and you just need high quality metal

336
00:14:52,890 --> 00:14:54,960
or chemicals or whatever goes in

337
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,580
and you can get anyone to pull the switch

338
00:14:58,445 --> 00:15:00,510
and have your machines
produce things, okay,

339
00:15:00,510 --> 00:15:04,080
that person is just a human
cog in the machine and fine,

340
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,000
you can find another cog.

341
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,690
If you have people adding value
different ways on my teams,

342
00:15:09,690 --> 00:15:11,310
we do software engineering,

343
00:15:11,310 --> 00:15:13,620
it is all about the people.

344
00:15:13,620 --> 00:15:16,530
They are the ones that
are driving our value.

345
00:15:16,530 --> 00:15:17,790
I optimize for them.

346
00:15:17,790 --> 00:15:20,309
In fact, I always say I don't care

347
00:15:20,309 --> 00:15:21,840
if our code necessarily runs less

348
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,660
efficiently 'cause I
can throw more CPUs at,

349
00:15:24,660 --> 00:15:29,310
I'll gladly pay a higher bill
at Amazon for my servers if it

350
00:15:29,310 --> 00:15:31,680
means my people are being
more efficient in the work

351
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,050
they do because they are driving value.

352
00:15:34,050 --> 00:15:36,810
And so it's like making dinner,

353
00:15:36,810 --> 00:15:38,370
what's the most important
part of the dinner?

354
00:15:38,370 --> 00:15:40,170
It's your ingredients.

355
00:15:40,170 --> 00:15:41,970
Poor ingredients, poor dinner,

356
00:15:41,970 --> 00:15:44,220
good ingredients, good dinner.

357
00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:47,580
Your people are probably
one of the key ingredients

358
00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:49,260
to your value,

359
00:15:49,260 --> 00:15:51,840
to the returns you're
giving your shareholders.

360
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,540
That's what you want to invest in.

361
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,060
- Yet again, I'm smiling,
I'm more like a Chester cat,

362
00:15:57,060 --> 00:16:01,470
I'm smiling from ear to ear
because that's obviously

363
00:16:01,470 --> 00:16:05,820
the bias of myself and
the bench builders team.

364
00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:10,170
As we've been kind of
talking about small startups

365
00:16:10,170 --> 00:16:12,270
and Fortune 500's,

366
00:16:12,270 --> 00:16:14,970
I kind of left out what probably accounts

367
00:16:14,970 --> 00:16:17,280
for the vast majority of businesses,

368
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,070
they're not necessary startups
but they've not achieved

369
00:16:20,070 --> 00:16:22,080
Fortune 500 status.

370
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,250
That is probably the company
that I most typically enjoy

371
00:16:26,250 --> 00:16:28,860
working with most, why?

372
00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:30,660
I'm working with the decision makers

373
00:16:31,674 --> 00:16:32,820
and they can see impact,

374
00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:35,700
they can see how what is it
we're working on together

375
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:37,380
immediately has impact.

376
00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:40,980
And it can be driven
down to the bottom line.

377
00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:44,670
My bias is most businesses fit

378
00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:49,320
in that small to mid-sized category.

379
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,533
But why does that group
get oftentimes overlooked?

380
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,060
- I'm with you in that they
are the most fun company

381
00:16:57,060 --> 00:16:58,830
to work for and why I like it.

382
00:16:58,830 --> 00:17:01,290
Startups early on you
don't have resources.

383
00:17:01,290 --> 00:17:03,210
We don't yet have customers.

384
00:17:03,210 --> 00:17:04,890
Oh a thousand dollars,
that's a lot of money.

385
00:17:04,890 --> 00:17:06,390
Can we spend it?

386
00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:07,980
At a big company,

387
00:17:07,980 --> 00:17:10,421
I can spend the thousand dollars,

388
00:17:10,421 --> 00:17:12,480
but I have to fill out
seven forms to do so.

389
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,220
It's a mid sized company
where they can say,

390
00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:15,787
hey, let's invest five,

391
00:17:15,787 --> 00:17:20,149
$10,000 in this and we can see the impact

392
00:17:20,149 --> 00:17:21,600
and I can physically see it,

393
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:22,770
'cause I can walk outta the office

394
00:17:22,770 --> 00:17:24,750
and see what's happening as opposed to,

395
00:17:24,750 --> 00:17:27,810
well that's in a different
office in a different country.

396
00:17:27,810 --> 00:17:32,810
But I think when you look at
for a lot of enterprise sales,

397
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,930
when we look at the returns,
it's really a power law.

398
00:17:36,930 --> 00:17:39,810
If you talk for example
to the cloud providers,

399
00:17:39,810 --> 00:17:42,537
to Amazon and Microsoft and IBM

400
00:17:42,537 --> 00:17:44,163
and we sell cloud services,

401
00:17:45,145 --> 00:17:47,310
it is a tiny handful of their companies

402
00:17:47,310 --> 00:17:50,490
that are driving most
of their cloud revenue.

403
00:17:50,490 --> 00:17:53,700
There's a small number of them
who are giving them literally

404
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:57,450
millions of dollars a year
and they look at a startup

405
00:17:57,450 --> 00:17:58,387
or an SMB and they say,

406
00:17:58,387 --> 00:18:02,220
"Oh yeah, you're paying us 30,000 a year."

407
00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:05,520
The only reason they care is
because any of those small

408
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,690
companies or SMBs can one
day turn into that large

409
00:18:09,690 --> 00:18:12,270
enterprise and be the key customer.

410
00:18:12,270 --> 00:18:15,300
But really they recognize the
bulk of the revenue for that

411
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:18,210
comes from a handful of
large enterprise customers.

412
00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:21,315
I suspect that's the same
thing when you look at other

413
00:18:21,315 --> 00:18:23,910
services and products
and that's why we see

414
00:18:23,910 --> 00:18:26,370
a lot of targeting to the enterprise

415
00:18:26,370 --> 00:18:28,920
and SMB is once they've attacked

416
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,230
the enterprise they say well
I guess we need to go down

417
00:18:31,230 --> 00:18:33,780
market if we want to
expand our revenue base.

418
00:18:33,780 --> 00:18:37,710
- Hmm, since I said that
we would talk about it,

419
00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:41,620
we most definitely could
spend the entire podcast

420
00:18:42,715 --> 00:18:43,915
on the career tool book.

421
00:18:45,567 --> 00:18:47,580
And for those who are
not familiar with it,

422
00:18:47,580 --> 00:18:50,310
I love the way you kind of lay it out

423
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:51,900
as one might would expect.

424
00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:53,490
It's very logical.

425
00:18:53,490 --> 00:18:55,410
You're talking about the power of threes,

426
00:18:55,410 --> 00:18:58,080
there's three main sections.

427
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:03,033
Career, leadership management
and interpersonal dynamics.

428
00:19:04,634 --> 00:19:06,810
And even within each of
those you use that same power

429
00:19:06,810 --> 00:19:09,213
of three in terms of the categories.

430
00:19:10,110 --> 00:19:13,650
People who order "The Career Tool" book,

431
00:19:13,650 --> 00:19:15,483
what's prompting them to do so?

432
00:19:17,130 --> 00:19:20,190
- They're recognizing
that any of these skills,

433
00:19:20,190 --> 00:19:22,020
and we've talked about some networking,

434
00:19:22,020 --> 00:19:24,000
negotiating leadership,

435
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,680
if you just get a little bit
better at any of these skills,

436
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,790
you're going to have a massive ROI.

437
00:19:32,790 --> 00:19:34,680
And let me just give a quick illustration.

438
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:39,680
Imagine you're an employee
and you are taking a job offer

439
00:19:39,870 --> 00:19:43,020
that give you $80,000
but instead of taking it,

440
00:19:43,020 --> 00:19:44,550
you've learned to negotiate.

441
00:19:44,550 --> 00:19:46,950
So you negotiate for 81,000.

442
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:49,850
That's not a big lift
we can imagine doing it.

443
00:19:49,850 --> 00:19:52,740
If you get after five 10
minutes of negotiating

444
00:19:52,740 --> 00:19:55,020
a thousand dollars more and stay

445
00:19:55,020 --> 00:19:57,660
in that job for the rest of your career,

446
00:19:57,660 --> 00:19:59,400
with five or 10 minutes of work.

447
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,560
You just got yourself a thousand dollars

448
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,123
for the next 35 years.

449
00:20:04,002 --> 00:20:05,820
$35,000 in 10 minutes.

450
00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:07,320
That's incredible.

451
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,690
But of course you're not
gonna stay in that job.

452
00:20:09,690 --> 00:20:12,240
You're going to have raises
and promotions and you'll

453
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,760
negotiate for more than
a thousand dollars.

454
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,090
If you get a little bit
better at negotiating,

455
00:20:18,090 --> 00:20:20,220
we're not talking about
being the world's best.

456
00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:22,249
It's a little bit better.

457
00:20:22,249 --> 00:20:24,660
You can add tens of thousands
or even hundreds of thousands

458
00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:27,660
of dollars to your lifetime earnings.

459
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:31,110
Imagine if everyone on your sales team,

460
00:20:31,110 --> 00:20:34,350
on your procurement team got
just a little bit better,

461
00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:36,870
got one or 2% better
in every deal they did.

462
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:39,390
What would that do to your bottom line?

463
00:20:39,390 --> 00:20:41,280
Now of course we know negotiating is not

464
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:42,810
just about salary and sales.

465
00:20:42,810 --> 00:20:45,000
We negotiate all the time with our peers,

466
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,170
with our coworkers.

467
00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:50,280
If every outcome of your
discussions got one or 2% better,

468
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,470
what would that do to your company?

469
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:53,760
And now I use negotiating

470
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,610
as an example 'cause we can do the math.

471
00:20:56,610 --> 00:21:00,660
But the same is true for
leadership, for communication.

472
00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:02,760
It's not that someone says
here's a thousand dollars more,

473
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,310
but your outcomes get a little bit better.

474
00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:08,640
And so imagine if everyone
in your organization

475
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,130
or even just yourself in your own career

476
00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:13,260
got a little bit better,

477
00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:15,150
the return will be massive.

478
00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:16,380
It's like compound interest.

479
00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:18,390
And so people buy the book as they say,

480
00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:19,920
there's all these skills.

481
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:20,970
I know what they are,

482
00:21:20,970 --> 00:21:23,730
we know networking's important,
I've heard about for years,

483
00:21:23,730 --> 00:21:27,150
but no one's ever taught me how
to do it, how to get better.

484
00:21:27,150 --> 00:21:29,040
So putting in that little investment

485
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,413
has a huge return for the readers.

486
00:21:33,030 --> 00:21:36,120
- Mark, it seems as if
we've had recent guests,

487
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:39,153
this theme keeps coming up and that is,

488
00:21:41,217 --> 00:21:46,110
there's so much horrific that
goes along with the pandemic,

489
00:21:46,110 --> 00:21:48,510
but there has been some
things that you step back

490
00:21:48,510 --> 00:21:50,881
and you look at it and what has it done.

491
00:21:50,881 --> 00:21:55,203
And it seems as if it's given
many people the opportunity

492
00:21:55,203 --> 00:22:00,203
to to reflect, to kind of assess
and begin making decisions.

493
00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:03,846
It's been commonly referred
to as the mass resignation

494
00:22:03,846 --> 00:22:06,120
by which people just kind of
say, look, I'm outta here,

495
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:07,800
I wanna move beyond it.

496
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,160
And that is if we have
listeners who are stepping back

497
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,630
and saying, you know what?

498
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:16,523
I may not have 25 years
to compound that $1,000

499
00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:20,073
that I got in more salary,

500
00:22:21,314 --> 00:22:26,130
but I want to use the time I
have left most effectively.

501
00:22:26,130 --> 00:22:29,790
And it could very well be at
different points in your career

502
00:22:29,790 --> 00:22:32,190
or at different levels
of the organization.

503
00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:35,700
How could someone who is say mid-career

504
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:37,323
benefit by your book.

505
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:41,760
- These skills by the
way apply at any stage

506
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,940
if you're not 30, but 55 even still,

507
00:22:44,940 --> 00:22:46,680
gain that a thousand dollars more gives

508
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,610
you more compounding works
just not for as long.

509
00:22:50,610 --> 00:22:52,680
Now the same thing goes
for our career plans.

510
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,090
It's great if you are 25 and
really understand where you

511
00:22:57,090 --> 00:23:00,060
wanna go and create the plan
to get there instead of maybe

512
00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:01,800
bouncing around and wasting time.

513
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,140
But even if you are 50 or 55

514
00:23:04,140 --> 00:23:07,110
and certainly in your
thirties and forties,

515
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:09,638
figuring out where you want to go

516
00:23:09,638 --> 00:23:11,460
and creating a plan to get there.

517
00:23:11,460 --> 00:23:14,820
'Cause we all know at work,
anytime we have a goal,

518
00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:16,250
we have this big project we have to do

519
00:23:16,250 --> 00:23:18,180
in the next two years.

520
00:23:18,180 --> 00:23:20,670
We actually create a
plan and see how we do

521
00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:22,080
against the plan and adjust.

522
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,090
We don't just cross our fingers and hope,

523
00:23:24,090 --> 00:23:26,010
but with our careers we do that.

524
00:23:26,010 --> 00:23:28,320
Say, well I hope to get that
promotion in a few years.

525
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,730
I hope to get to that level.

526
00:23:29,730 --> 00:23:33,063
I'm not gonna create a
plan, that doesn't work.

527
00:23:34,083 --> 00:23:35,580
So we want to apply some
of the same techniques

528
00:23:35,580 --> 00:23:37,980
and to your point, people
are finally stepping back

529
00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:40,440
and saying, what is it I want?

530
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:41,520
Now here's the key thing,

531
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,730
there's a bunch of questions
that I give people to start

532
00:23:44,730 --> 00:23:46,590
thinking about this and
they're free on the website,

533
00:23:46,590 --> 00:23:49,290
which will give you a
little later in the show.

534
00:23:49,290 --> 00:23:52,050
It's not just about your job.

535
00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:54,000
Yes, ask questions like how many hours

536
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,620
do I wanna be in the office?

537
00:23:55,620 --> 00:23:59,010
Do I wanna manage people or
be an individual contributor?

538
00:23:59,010 --> 00:24:03,150
Ask those questions, but
also ask about your life.

539
00:24:03,150 --> 00:24:04,610
How much flexibility do you want?

540
00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:07,740
Do you wanna be able to
take off in the afternoon

541
00:24:07,740 --> 00:24:09,540
to go see your child's play in school?

542
00:24:09,540 --> 00:24:13,320
Which I was fortunate that
my dad was able to do that.

543
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:14,430
Those things matter too.

544
00:24:14,430 --> 00:24:19,140
So ask questions about your
life and then make sure your job

545
00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:22,020
and career fit into the life that you want

546
00:24:22,020 --> 00:24:24,120
instead of trying to fit your life

547
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:25,570
around the job that you have.

548
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:30,210
- I hear very often that people feel stuck

549
00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:32,550
from a career standpoint.

550
00:24:32,550 --> 00:24:35,310
In my conversations with friends,

551
00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:38,040
I hear that as a kind of recurring theme.

552
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,510
So I could see if a person feels
somewhat stuck career wise,

553
00:24:42,510 --> 00:24:47,040
how the career tool book
could be helpful to them.

554
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:52,040
Mark, as you kind of look back
on your experiences thus far,

555
00:24:52,530 --> 00:24:55,830
working with individuals,
working with teams,

556
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:59,040
working with companies
of all different sizes,

557
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:00,930
working in academia,

558
00:25:00,930 --> 00:25:05,850
helping those at MIT get
off to a good strong start

559
00:25:05,850 --> 00:25:09,120
with the career success accelerator.

560
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:12,360
As you kind of reflect on
those experiences thus far,

561
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:14,926
can you think of an example
by which either you or someone

562
00:25:14,926 --> 00:25:18,480
that you're working with got stuck?

563
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,573
And if so, what did it
take to get unstuck?

564
00:25:22,890 --> 00:25:26,490
- I have seen so many people
get stuck in their careers.

565
00:25:26,490 --> 00:25:29,310
In fact, the opening few lines of my book

566
00:25:29,310 --> 00:25:32,590
are examples of people I saw I worked with

567
00:25:33,668 --> 00:25:34,890
who wanted to get somewhere.

568
00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:38,850
Someone who says I wanna be
a director, but that's it.

569
00:25:38,850 --> 00:25:39,780
They wanna be a director

570
00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:42,195
and they don't know how to get there.

571
00:25:42,195 --> 00:25:43,680
And for years their career languishes.

572
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,790
I've seen some people who get
sidelined into a certain type

573
00:25:47,790 --> 00:25:49,470
of project or industry or role,

574
00:25:49,470 --> 00:25:50,730
it's not really where they wanna be.

575
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:52,380
But each step the boss says,

576
00:25:52,380 --> 00:25:53,790
well look, we just need you on this

577
00:25:53,790 --> 00:25:56,880
for another year or really
need you on this project.

578
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,620
And then they look back eight years later

579
00:25:58,620 --> 00:26:01,380
and they say, wow, where did that time go?

580
00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:04,650
And it's because people don't
have that proactive plan.

581
00:26:04,650 --> 00:26:06,510
The analogy I use in the book,

582
00:26:06,510 --> 00:26:09,090
imagine you're sitting in a small boat

583
00:26:09,090 --> 00:26:10,680
in the middle of the ocean,

584
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,370
there are currents moving you
around and if you do nothing,

585
00:26:14,370 --> 00:26:17,370
the currents are going
to direct you somewhere.

586
00:26:17,370 --> 00:26:20,940
It may be where you want
to end up, it may not be.

587
00:26:20,940 --> 00:26:23,477
So your best bet for getting

588
00:26:23,477 --> 00:26:25,830
where you want to go is to
know where you want to go

589
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:28,140
and then proactively create a plan.

590
00:26:28,140 --> 00:26:29,820
Now that might be rolling,

591
00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:32,550
growing or sailing or
turning on the engine.

592
00:26:32,550 --> 00:26:35,310
And sometimes those currents will help you

593
00:26:35,310 --> 00:26:36,540
and they'll take you there faster.

594
00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:38,850
Sometimes they're gonna work against you.

595
00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:41,440
And what happens in
life is we have currents

596
00:26:42,641 --> 00:26:44,160
and it could be the boss who's blocking

597
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,860
our promotion or trying
to help us get promoted.

598
00:26:46,860 --> 00:26:49,510
It could be your division
just got shut down

599
00:26:50,422 --> 00:26:51,255
or there's a global pandemic

600
00:26:51,255 --> 00:26:53,400
that threw everything into chaos.

601
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,340
And so that project that
was supposed to happen 2020

602
00:26:56,340 --> 00:26:57,693
completely got shelved.

603
00:26:58,798 --> 00:26:59,970
You never know what can happen,

604
00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:02,400
but you can't just sit back

605
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,020
and wait for the currents
to take you there.

606
00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:07,590
You have to have a plan and
you have to be proactive.

607
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:10,230
And it begins if you don't
know where you want to go,

608
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:13,380
it begins by exploring and
talking to people to understand

609
00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:16,380
where you would be happier
than where you are now.

610
00:27:16,380 --> 00:27:18,430
And then creating that plan to get there.

611
00:27:19,710 --> 00:27:21,860
- What I love about
what you just described

612
00:27:22,965 --> 00:27:25,920
is the context was individual context

613
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,800
and that is recognizing the currents.

614
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:29,940
They're gonna take you somewhere,

615
00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:32,220
you just gotta decide what
you're gonna do about it.

616
00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:36,480
I can see how you, in
working with your clients,

617
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,680
apply the same thing when
it comes to their planning.

618
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,960
And that is don't leave it to chance.

619
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,223
Be intentional.

620
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:46,470
- That's exactly right.

621
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:48,150
We think about our project plans,

622
00:27:48,150 --> 00:27:50,640
we don't just say, well
I think if we do this,

623
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,080
it's going to work.

624
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,100
We say, wait a second,

625
00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:56,550
what if this is twice as
hard as we think it is?

626
00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:59,610
What if that vendor who's
promised to deliver by the 30th,

627
00:27:59,610 --> 00:28:00,780
what happens if they don't?

628
00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:02,430
Do we have a backup plan?

629
00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:03,750
And you'll think about these things

630
00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:07,110
and then you'll adjust when things happen.

631
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:09,573
The same thing applies
to our career plans.

632
00:28:12,270 --> 00:28:15,120
- As you well know, this is
not a scripted conversation,

633
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:20,120
but I'm kind of looking at
your degrees and reflecting on

634
00:28:20,220 --> 00:28:24,150
what you are doing now
and how you help clients?

635
00:28:24,150 --> 00:28:27,780
What do those of those degrees
do you find yourself tapping

636
00:28:27,780 --> 00:28:29,193
into most often?

637
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,703
- No question, the physics degree.

638
00:28:33,774 --> 00:28:35,036
- Hmm.

639
00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:35,910
- Even though I work in software,

640
00:28:35,910 --> 00:28:38,190
so you think the electrical
engineering and pure science

641
00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:41,820
degrees are relevant and
sure, I use some of that.

642
00:28:41,820 --> 00:28:44,580
But what physics taught me

643
00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:48,540
is how to frame and solve problems.

644
00:28:48,540 --> 00:28:50,670
And really when it comes down to it,

645
00:28:50,670 --> 00:28:53,490
we think of framing and solving problems

646
00:28:53,490 --> 00:28:55,260
within our discipline.

647
00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:58,620
Certainly within engineering,
I need to do this.

648
00:28:58,620 --> 00:29:02,190
How do I do it using the
rules and constraints I have.

649
00:29:02,190 --> 00:29:03,270
If you're in finance,

650
00:29:03,270 --> 00:29:05,550
well we need to get
this type of cash flow,

651
00:29:05,550 --> 00:29:07,290
how do we do that?

652
00:29:07,290 --> 00:29:10,830
But there are a bunch of
problems that are a lot harder,

653
00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:14,490
which is I need to get my team to do this,

654
00:29:14,490 --> 00:29:19,490
to behave a certain way, to
engage, to deliver this work.

655
00:29:19,890 --> 00:29:22,470
And boy, they're not
working well together,

656
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:25,080
they're fighting, there's
poor communications.

657
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,970
So that's the goal.

658
00:29:26,970 --> 00:29:29,721
But now I have to frame the
problem the right way to apply

659
00:29:29,721 --> 00:29:31,710
the right approaches.

660
00:29:31,710 --> 00:29:32,700
So just like in physics,

661
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:34,380
we say how do we model it?

662
00:29:34,380 --> 00:29:37,380
And then what are the
formulas we use to solve it?

663
00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:38,340
The same thing's through here,

664
00:29:38,340 --> 00:29:42,189
but it's not as easy to recognize
how to define the problem

665
00:29:42,189 --> 00:29:43,740
and which approach.

666
00:29:43,740 --> 00:29:47,760
One thing I love about the
people side is any rule,

667
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,140
there's an exception somewhere,

668
00:29:49,140 --> 00:29:50,400
you can always come up with an example

669
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,890
where that's not the right thing to do.

670
00:29:52,890 --> 00:29:54,780
And so it's a lot more subtle

671
00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:56,530
and I think a lot more challenging.

672
00:29:57,870 --> 00:29:59,340
- I couldn't agree with you more.

673
00:29:59,340 --> 00:30:03,393
And that is when I was working
in a corporate HR standpoint,

674
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:05,760
just when you think you've seen it all,

675
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,660
something else happens

676
00:30:09,422 --> 00:30:11,220
and people are are not as predictable

677
00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:13,650
as one might would think.

678
00:30:13,650 --> 00:30:15,540
I'm really intrigued by your response

679
00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:18,690
and that is you tap into
your physics background.

680
00:30:18,690 --> 00:30:23,520
I'm certain listening to
you and how easy you are in

681
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,613
describing not technical matters,

682
00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:29,010
but these non-technical matters.

683
00:30:29,010 --> 00:30:32,610
Actually those matters that
can be much more derailing.

684
00:30:32,610 --> 00:30:34,440
You're talking about communication,

685
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,940
you're talking about teamwork,

686
00:30:36,829 --> 00:30:40,143
you're talking about
having a plan and purpose.

687
00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:46,310
You have a great ability
just to kinda take that

688
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,673
and just put it in a a way
that's very easy to understand.

689
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:54,420
Mark, we've talked about
a pretty wide variety

690
00:30:54,420 --> 00:30:56,280
of things in this conversation.

691
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,070
As you kinda look back
on what we've discussed,

692
00:30:59,070 --> 00:31:01,140
what do you wanna make sure our viewers

693
00:31:01,140 --> 00:31:03,663
and listeners have as takeaways?

694
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:06,900
- I'd say a few different things.

695
00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:10,470
One of the most common ways
organizations get stuck

696
00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:13,050
is what's been working for them to date

697
00:31:13,050 --> 00:31:15,510
no longer works in the new environment

698
00:31:15,510 --> 00:31:17,157
which they're operating in.

699
00:31:17,157 --> 00:31:19,320
It might be because they're
scaling up or the industry

700
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,540
has changed or something
about their organization.

701
00:31:21,540 --> 00:31:23,882
They went from all sitting together

702
00:31:23,882 --> 00:31:25,260
to now being distributed.

703
00:31:25,260 --> 00:31:28,410
So recognize that when
there are external changes,

704
00:31:28,410 --> 00:31:31,860
you might need to review
your operating practices

705
00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:34,620
and adjust to the needs you have today.

706
00:31:34,620 --> 00:31:35,920
Not what worked yesterday.

707
00:31:36,780 --> 00:31:38,823
When it comes to upskilling,

708
00:31:40,044 --> 00:31:43,770
small improvements in these
skills can have a huge return.

709
00:31:43,770 --> 00:31:44,970
Don't get daunted, don't say,

710
00:31:44,970 --> 00:31:47,160
well, never gonna be a great leader.

711
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:47,993
That's okay.

712
00:31:47,993 --> 00:31:50,280
If you're just a slightly
better leader tomorrow than you

713
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,710
are today you will have a huge benefit.

714
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:55,620
And if you can do this for
your whole organization,

715
00:31:55,620 --> 00:31:59,880
the return is massive and there
are very easy no cost ways

716
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,430
to do this within your organization.

717
00:32:02,430 --> 00:32:05,637
And then when it comes to the
third piece to thinking about

718
00:32:05,637 --> 00:32:08,190
some of the bigger challenges,

719
00:32:08,190 --> 00:32:11,310
really, if you can frame
the problem correctly,

720
00:32:11,310 --> 00:32:12,630
you're halfway there to solving,

721
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:15,930
So many people are looking
at the wrong problem,

722
00:32:15,930 --> 00:32:17,700
they're looking at the wrong way.

723
00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:19,110
And if you look at the
problem the wrong way,

724
00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:22,020
you pick up a bunch of
incorrect solutions.

725
00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:24,180
If you think that screw is a nail,

726
00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:25,950
you're gonna start hammering it.

727
00:32:25,950 --> 00:32:27,660
If you recognize it as a screw,

728
00:32:27,660 --> 00:32:28,680
you're gonna get the right tool,

729
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,170
the screwdriver and it's so much easier.

730
00:32:31,170 --> 00:32:33,330
So knowing how to identify

731
00:32:33,330 --> 00:32:35,163
and frame the problem is really key.

732
00:32:36,870 --> 00:32:39,060
- Mark, I'm confident that folks listening

733
00:32:39,060 --> 00:32:41,370
to this will want to learn more.

734
00:32:41,370 --> 00:32:44,100
What's the best way for
people to learn more

735
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:46,443
about you and what is it you do?

736
00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:51,210
- You can go to my website,
the career toolkitbook.com.

737
00:32:51,210 --> 00:32:53,490
Now that's where you're gonna
learn about the book part

738
00:32:53,490 --> 00:32:54,930
of it and the upskilling.

739
00:32:54,930 --> 00:32:57,870
If you want the other side of me,

740
00:32:57,870 --> 00:33:00,600
the consultant side, you
can look at my LinkedIn,

741
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,340
which is linked from my website.

742
00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:04,800
So if you go to the careertoolkitbook.com,

743
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,240
you can see where to buy the book.

744
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,440
You can get in touch with me.

745
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,787
You can follow me on social media.

746
00:33:09,787 --> 00:33:11,940
Or from the contact page,
go to my LinkedIn page.

747
00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:15,990
You can find other free
resources throughout my website.

748
00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:18,090
Other than the book, I give
everything away for free.

749
00:33:18,090 --> 00:33:19,860
There's a free companion app,

750
00:33:19,860 --> 00:33:21,600
where you don't even have to buy the book,

751
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,550
that has a lot of the
key points from the book.

752
00:33:23,550 --> 00:33:26,480
I put out new content every
week and there's a resources

753
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,100
page with a bunch of free downloads,

754
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:31,800
including the career plan
questions we talked about,

755
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,830
including questions to ask
during the interview process,

756
00:33:34,830 --> 00:33:36,330
how to think about things both

757
00:33:36,330 --> 00:33:38,940
as a hiring manager and as a candidate.

758
00:33:38,940 --> 00:33:41,220
The very first download is a free guide

759
00:33:41,220 --> 00:33:43,530
for how to create an upskilling program

760
00:33:43,530 --> 00:33:44,850
across your organization,

761
00:33:44,850 --> 00:33:46,380
completely free.

762
00:33:46,380 --> 00:33:47,580
You don't have to buy anything.

763
00:33:47,580 --> 00:33:48,413
You can just download it,

764
00:33:48,413 --> 00:33:50,610
and get it by asking for your email.

765
00:33:50,610 --> 00:33:53,160
Take it and improve
your whole organization.

766
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,183
So all of this is available
at thecareertoolkit.com.

767
00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:00,330
- I've spent time on that website.

768
00:34:00,330 --> 00:34:02,400
It's an excellent website.

769
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,400
It's easy to navigate and the
resources that are available

770
00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:10,713
for download is very, very impressive,

771
00:34:11,929 --> 00:34:13,230
as you are as well.

772
00:34:13,230 --> 00:34:17,010
Mark, thank you for
spending time with me today.

773
00:34:17,010 --> 00:34:18,243
I really appreciate it.

774
00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:21,720
- Thanks for having me on the show.

775
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:24,630
- I also wanna thank our
listeners for joining us today.

776
00:34:24,630 --> 00:34:27,780
We upload the latest
episode every Thursday

777
00:34:27,780 --> 00:34:31,740
to all the major platforms,
including Apple and Spotify.

778
00:34:31,740 --> 00:34:33,934
So if you've enjoyed
this episode with Mark,

779
00:34:33,934 --> 00:34:36,090
please subscribe.

780
00:34:36,090 --> 00:34:37,860
I've got a question for our listeners.

781
00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:40,383
Are you trying to grow your
business and you wanna make sure

782
00:34:40,383 --> 00:34:43,410
that you've got the right
people, process and planning

783
00:34:43,410 --> 00:34:46,230
systems in place to grow smoothly?

784
00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:48,810
If yes, let's talk.

785
00:34:48,810 --> 00:34:51,390
Head to unstuck.show to schedule

786
00:34:51,390 --> 00:34:54,210
a quick non-sales call.

787
00:34:54,210 --> 00:34:57,330
We'll talk about your growth
goals and explore practical

788
00:34:57,330 --> 00:35:01,500
steps that you can take
immediately to grow your business.

789
00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:03,660
So I wanna thank you for joining us

790
00:35:03,660 --> 00:35:05,640
and I hope you have picked up on some tips

791
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,130
from Mark that will help you get

792
00:35:08,130 --> 00:35:11,070
unstuck and on target.

793
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:12,003
Until next time.

794
00:35:12,897 --> 00:35:15,480
(upbeat music)