Episode 93: How to use Storytelling to Land your Ideal Job with Gina Riley

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(uplifting music)

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- Welcome back to the Get
Unstuck and On Target podcast.

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I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders

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and we help growing companies,

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especially manufacturers
improve their people,

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process and planning systems
so they can scale smarter

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and faster.

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Joining me today from
Portland, Oregon is Gina Riley.

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Gina is an HR professional who sits

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at that powerful convergence
between career coaching,

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executive, you know what?

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I'm gonna stop that.

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- Okay.

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- I've done, you're number
93 and I've only done that

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once, but I want that to be right.

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(Gina chuckles)
How's that for perfectionism?

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- Am I'm making you crazy today?

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I think I am. (chuckles)

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- You know, I have trouble,
powerful convergence

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was hard for me to say, so I wanna say

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right-
- Powerful convergence.

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- Okay.

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I'm ready to-
- That's a great word.

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- I'm ready to hit it again if you are.

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My apologies.

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- I'm all good, I'm breezy.

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- Literally, I think I've
only stopped midstream

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once before.

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So, look what a influence
you've had on me.

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(Gina laughs)

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- I make those situational
mistakes all the time.

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All good.

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- All right.

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Welcome back to the Get
Unstuck and On Target podcast.

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I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders

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and we help growing companies,

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especially manufacturers
improve their people,

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process and planning systems

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so they can scale smarter and faster.

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Joining me today from
Portland, Oregon is Gina Riley.

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Gina is an HR professional who sits

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at the powerful convergence
between career coaching,

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executive search and
interview skills training.

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Gina is an authority in career transition.

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She's the creator of the
trademark Career Velocity System,

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a comprehensive solution
that helps leaders

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and executives map out
a transition strategy

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to last throughout their career.

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Welcome, Gina.

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- Thanks for having me.

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I am really excited to have a
conversation with you today.

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- Gina, we had an opportunity
before we scheduled

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this podcast to talk about
what might Gina share

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and something that you
mentioned almost in passing

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kind of caught my attention.

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And that is the notion of storytelling

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and that is marketers are really promoting

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the value of storytelling.

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And so what I know about storytelling

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is more from marketing your business,

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and you're here to share that storytelling

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should be a key component
if you really want

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to land your ideal job.

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So that's what I would
like to talk about today.

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- I'm ready to do that.

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And what's so interesting about the topic

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is it overlays nicely with
what you and your team do.

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If a company is trying to
build a strategy and a plan,

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it ties to their brand
and their messaging.

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And the same is true for
professionals who are looking

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to make a career transition.

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I advocate for creating
your own strategic plan

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and building in the building blocks

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that tie back to your
brand, your messaging,

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but more importantly, tie to what it is

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that you want to
accomplish out in the world

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based on the stories that you tell

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and how do you attract people to you

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through the power of your storytelling?

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- What is it that makes
storytelling so powerful?

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- Well, as humans, we lock into stories.

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That's what we, we wanna
make sense of our world.

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If we kind of just look
at social psychology

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is we wanna make sense of our world.

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And so when people tell
us stories it anchors us

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to something that is easier to remember

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rather than a lot of
just facts and figures.

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- You know, when I think
about looking at resumes,

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it does seem as if it's
mostly facts and figures.

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I know that you have kind of a process.

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I introduce it as a
Career Velocity System.

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Let's go there just for a moment.

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- Sure.
- Tell us a little more,

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what is that system and how does it work?

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- That's actually a good place to start

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and I'll just kinda
give you very quick arc

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of the movement of what I do.

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First, we're doing personal assessment.

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We're really unpacking
somebody's unique, strengths,

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skills, motivators, and values.

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I have a specific way of doing that.

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There's other coaches that
do it in different ways,

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but the importance of
this for career transition

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is first, starting with you,

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not the facts and figures
that go on a resume.

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A resume is really a marketing document

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that's going to maybe crack
open that first conversation

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because you've got some factor
figure that's impressive,

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and they're like, I gotta
talk to that person, right?

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But once you land the phone call,

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the first phone call and
subsequent phone calls,

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if you can't infuse who
you are and how you do

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what you do through your storytelling,

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then you will have a more
difficult time breaking through

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the noise compared to other candidates.

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So starting there, second
thing that I advocate is,

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and making sure you
understand how to describe

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your leadership approach.

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So it's the second thing I'm doing

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is unpacking that leadership approach.

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I've got my process and again, you know,

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different coaches have other
processes of doing that.

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There's no right or
wrong, just differences.

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Then it's really important
that a person understands

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their career arc from point A to point B.

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We all know our story.

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If you were just gonna have dinner with me

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and you were gonna tell me your story,

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it might take you a while
because it's just sort

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of a casual conversation.

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It could be be 15 or 20 minutes.

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When you're in an interview
situation you've gotta answer

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tell me about yourself in
about three to five minutes.

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I've actually been in interview situations

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where we've even told an
executive level client

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or not client, I'm sorry, an
interviewer or interviewee,

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I can't get the words
out, a candidate who said

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you have 20 even minutes or
10 minutes to tell your story

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and then they go much longer than that.

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You wanna be able to capture attention

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with your career arc, just the highlights

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so that you can pivot into
the meat of the conversation,

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which is how can your toolkit, your skills

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and your experience help that company.

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So the power is really about who you are,

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your leadership approach,
and being able to talk

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about your relevant career stories

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in ways that land with decision makers,

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whether that's in an interview situation,

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or you're a part of an executive team

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that's now gonna go out
and do what we call the dog

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and pony show trying to
get funding for example,

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or you're in front of a board of directors

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and you're trying to
influence decisions being made

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on behalf of the company,
it's all about these stories

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and infusing believability in what,

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we're the value that we'll bring

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when we go do what we say we're gonna do.

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- You know, as I'm
listening to you describe

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the process that you use with your clients

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and we're talking about
the power of stories,

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you use the word infuse,
that caught my attention,

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and that is how can we
infuse you into a story

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in not only a compelling fashion,

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but also something that's natural.

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Do you find that some
people have some resistance

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to this notion?

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And if so, what works to kind of help them

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better understand why
storytelling is important

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and why they need to embrace it?

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- Hmm.

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I would say that most
people first are challenged

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by the idea of just
interviewing in general

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and telling those stories.

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When we start with the who you are,

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how you do what you do and your approach,

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it first anchors you with a certain level

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of confidence about your
uniqueness in the first place.

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So we're both familiar
with strengths finder.

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When you do the strengths
finder, which is part

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of the assessment that I do,

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you immediately are looking
at five top strengths

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that make you one in 33 million
people according to Gallup.

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Starting from a place of
like the way that I approach

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my work is unique to me
and unlike most people

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I'm ever going to meet you start infusing

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the how you do what you do
through your storytelling

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without using the scientific words

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that come off the page
from that Gallup report.

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Nobody wants to hear,
well, I'm an activator

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or I'm an achiever.

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That's not what it is.

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Instead we're now bringing to
life through our storytellings

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how we get results by
saying, I activate teams

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and I collaborate across, you know,

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across functions in order
to bring people together,

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lay down a framework and
a strategy and a process,

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develop KPIs, and then, you know,

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achieve great things and so on.

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So you can infuse some
of those words in the way

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that you tell the story for example.

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- You know, we're
recording this using Zoom,

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a tool that probably didn't
even exist five years ago,

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probably even a shorter horizon than that.

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How has Zoom and its equivalents,

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how has it changed the
interviewing process?

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- Ooh, that's a really good question.

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I'll say that I consult for
an executive search firm

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on top of the coaching
company that I have,

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it's Talents Group, and
we've been using Zoom

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before the pandemic hit.

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And so, you know, we would have

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leadership level
candidates who would arrive

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on the video very uncomfortable.

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Maybe they, we would be looking
up their nose or, you know,

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from the forehead up and so on.

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And people have developed a
greater sophistication now

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through that process and it
makes us more nimble and quick

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at doing that recruitment job.

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We can touch people across
the whole country in ways

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that we, in the world in ways
that we could not before.

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And it allows all of us
to connect as humanly

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as we can through the power of video.

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And I just think it's an incredible tool

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and I'm so delighted that
everyone is caught up

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with what we were using
in the first place.

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- I do remember very early in the pandemic

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I had the good fortune of
getting an account early on,

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but I remember talking
to folks and saying,

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we're gonna be using
Zoom and it's this what?

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And so you had to coach them through that.

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Let me continue on along those lines,

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because I know you work
with all levels of leaders,

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but let's talk about the executives,

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whereas this notion of executive
presence keeps coming up.

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How do you advise your executive clients

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to have that sense of presence

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even if it's on something like Zoom?

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What's required?

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- That's such an important question.

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I'm really glad that you asked that.

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First, let's define the high level,

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what executive presence is.

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There's three universal dimensions.

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I use the work from Sylvia Ann Hewlett.

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She wrote a book called
"Executive Presence"

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and did a big, huge survey
where all of the information

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that I'm drawing from comes from.

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- Okay.
- It's your appearance,

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it's your communication
and it's your gravitas.

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So there's like 17 different elements

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within those three categories.

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Let's approach appearance.

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When we show up and especially

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in a situation where we're
trying to influence people,

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whether that's as a candidate
or maybe it's an investor,

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whatever your scenario is,
you wanna look the part.

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And it doesn't mean today
putting on a blue suit

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and a tie or, you know, a big
wad of pearls or something,

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or a scarf.

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It's just showing up in a way that signals

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that you're there to do business.

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And a lot of people still
have their yoga pants

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or slippers on, I get it.

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But I advocate for my
own clients who are going

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into interview situations
dressed like you would,

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you were gonna show up on
site minus the blue suit

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and put on your shoes.

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Put on your business shoes

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and I'll have my clients
who head into interviews,

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they'll take pictures
of their shoes and say,

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I'm wearing my shoes today, Gina.

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So appearance is one very important aspect

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because it takes only 250 milliseconds

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for us to make a judgment, a
snap judgment about each other.

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So I'm already making a judgment
call when a person arrives

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on video.

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Once you get past that,
it's the least important.

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Okay, I see you're here to do business.

00:12:50.626 --> 00:12:53.130
Let's look at the other two dimensions

00:12:53.130 --> 00:12:54.990
and its importance on video.

00:12:54.990 --> 00:12:56.610
Communication.

00:12:56.610 --> 00:12:59.634
You wanna be able to show up
and articulate yourself well

00:12:59.634 --> 00:13:03.718
to the point, ready to tell those stories

00:13:03.718 --> 00:13:06.240
where you don't ramble
and that you're succinct.

00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:11.240
And how that applies to
gravitas also relates to EQ

00:13:11.251 --> 00:13:15.240
or your ability, your emotional quotient,

00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:17.231
your ability to read the room.

00:13:17.231 --> 00:13:19.261
Well, we're not in the
room together, right?

00:13:19.261 --> 00:13:24.261
So it's, and we may have a panel situation

00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:27.808
where there's multiple
people in on an interview.

00:13:27.808 --> 00:13:31.920
Paying attention and looking
people in the eye virtually,

00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:34.560
looking to see if people
are paying attention,

00:13:34.560 --> 00:13:37.680
maybe drawing them into
the conversation by saying,

00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:40.470
so, Ben, do you have a question for me?

00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:41.730
Or, you know, something like that,

00:13:41.730 --> 00:13:44.100
where you're, you know, Susie, you know,

00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:45.835
I'm wondering if we could
go more deeply into that.

00:13:45.835 --> 00:13:50.240
Making sure that you have
command of your situation

00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:53.430
and you're seeing if people
are connecting with you

00:13:53.430 --> 00:13:56.040
and that what you're saying is resonating.

00:13:56.040 --> 00:13:58.598
One of the mistakes that
I see candidates make

00:13:58.598 --> 00:14:00.536
when they're telling their stories

00:14:00.536 --> 00:14:02.632
is they're not ready to do it succinctly.

00:14:02.632 --> 00:14:07.170
So they talk way too long and
then they lose the audience

00:14:07.170 --> 00:14:08.790
and then they're not sort of checking

00:14:08.790 --> 00:14:11.130
to see if the eyeballs have rolled back

00:14:11.130 --> 00:14:12.750
or there's blank stares.

00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:15.593
So I recommend in that situation to ask,

00:14:15.593 --> 00:14:20.070
is this you know, the
direction you wanted me

00:14:20.070 --> 00:14:22.380
to head with with this answer.

00:14:22.380 --> 00:14:25.170
Is there a different area
that you need me to cover

00:14:25.170 --> 00:14:27.450
so you can really unpack my skills?

00:14:27.450 --> 00:14:29.935
That's having a real conversation
and not just treating

00:14:29.935 --> 00:14:33.271
the conversation as a one
way, you know, street.

00:14:33.271 --> 00:14:35.640
You're a candidate, it's a two way street.

00:14:35.640 --> 00:14:37.983
You're evaluating them too so
make sure you're connecting

00:14:37.983 --> 00:14:40.500
with the people that are going to hire you

00:14:40.500 --> 00:14:42.145
and who are decision makers.

00:14:42.145 --> 00:14:45.112
- You mentioned connecting with,

00:14:45.112 --> 00:14:47.010
and that's how we started
this conversation.

00:14:47.010 --> 00:14:50.070
How can you present yourself in a way

00:14:50.070 --> 00:14:52.590
that creates connections?

00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:54.480
And we're talking about storytelling.

00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:56.340
I kinda like to ask you
to elaborate a little bit

00:14:56.340 --> 00:15:01.035
on what is storytelling, how does it work

00:15:01.035 --> 00:15:03.777
and how do you get people so comfortable

00:15:03.777 --> 00:15:06.933
with it that it becomes
almost second nature?

00:15:08.018 --> 00:15:12.000
- In order for it to become second nature,

00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.370
your storytelling,
particularly in interviews,

00:15:14.370 --> 00:15:17.040
but it works otherwise
and used it in other ways

00:15:17.040 --> 00:15:19.110
is using a framework.

00:15:19.110 --> 00:15:22.140
And there are many coaches out there

00:15:22.140 --> 00:15:24.986
that use different
frameworks that are similar.

00:15:24.986 --> 00:15:28.333
So I use the SOAR
methodology and that stands

00:15:28.333 --> 00:15:33.333
for situation, obstacles,
actions, and results.

00:15:34.350 --> 00:15:37.350
What this means when you build
that in your storytelling

00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:41.130
in the construct is tell
me what the situation was

00:15:41.130 --> 00:15:44.490
or the context overall, lay the groundwork

00:15:44.490 --> 00:15:46.470
so I understand where we're going.

00:15:46.470 --> 00:15:48.030
Then actions.

00:15:48.030 --> 00:15:50.387
What actions did you take within the story

00:15:50.387 --> 00:15:52.740
and for leaders, I like to say,

00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:54.960
and then what did your team accomplish?

00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.629
Because if a person's gonna
say, I, I, I, the whole time,

00:15:58.629 --> 00:16:00.732
you don't come across as humble.

00:16:00.732 --> 00:16:04.536
If you say we all the
time, you don't come across

00:16:04.536 --> 00:16:06.240
as a confident leader.

00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.675
You have to strike a balance
and own what you led.

00:16:09.675 --> 00:16:13.117
At the same time, recognizing your team

00:16:13.117 --> 00:16:16.441
backed you up and got it
across the finish line, right?

00:16:16.441 --> 00:16:20.460
So situation, actions, obstacles.

00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:21.390
What were the challenges?

00:16:21.390 --> 00:16:22.920
Why are you bothering to tell this story

00:16:22.920 --> 00:16:24.930
in the first place, right?

00:16:24.930 --> 00:16:26.159
And then results.

00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:27.512
What was the impact?

00:16:27.512 --> 00:16:30.840
Why are you telling this
story and can you quantify it?

00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:32.100
So in an interview situation,

00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:33.367
it's really great if
you can quantify that.

00:16:33.367 --> 00:16:36.489
You know, we grew our
business from 40 to 50 million

00:16:36.489 --> 00:16:40.890
that year, or some things aren't
quantifiable with numbers,

00:16:40.890 --> 00:16:42.810
dollar signs, and percentage signs.

00:16:42.810 --> 00:16:45.176
There may be something else
that's more challenging

00:16:45.176 --> 00:16:47.730
to represent, but it could be an increase

00:16:47.730 --> 00:16:50.633
in customer satisfaction
scores for example.

00:16:50.633 --> 00:16:53.493
- Do you find in working with clients

00:16:53.493 --> 00:16:57.870
that role play is used?

00:16:57.870 --> 00:17:02.280
Do you use role play as a way
to help instill these skills?

00:17:02.280 --> 00:17:04.920
- For me, I actually
don't use role playing.

00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:09.920
Instead when I'm helping my
clients prepare for interviews,

00:17:10.125 --> 00:17:12.039
what we're doing is
we're literally taking,

00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:14.769
hopefully ideal job descriptions
that are well written.

00:17:14.769 --> 00:17:16.873
Most job descriptions
aren't very well written,

00:17:16.873 --> 00:17:20.100
but what we're doing is
we're taking each line item

00:17:20.100 --> 00:17:22.410
of what those outcomes are supposed to be

00:17:22.410 --> 00:17:23.729
if the person does their job well,

00:17:23.729 --> 00:17:25.717
and then we're creating behavioral

00:17:25.717 --> 00:17:29.310
or competency based questions
directly tied to it.

00:17:29.310 --> 00:17:31.467
It's very easy to flip it into a question.

00:17:31.467 --> 00:17:36.467
And it takes a few times of
doing that for my clients

00:17:36.523 --> 00:17:39.861
to feel comfortable and confident
doing it for themselves.

00:17:39.861 --> 00:17:41.683
But what I'm setting them
up to do is to be able

00:17:41.683 --> 00:17:44.220
to do that for the rest of their career.

00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:45.594
They don't really need me to go

00:17:45.594 --> 00:17:47.713
and shape the questions for them.

00:17:47.713 --> 00:17:49.972
Then we design the SOAR
method right underneath.

00:17:49.972 --> 00:17:52.787
They build the stories,
then they come back

00:17:52.787 --> 00:17:54.690
and they share the stories with me.

00:17:54.690 --> 00:17:56.698
And then that way I can help clip, cut,

00:17:56.698 --> 00:18:00.592
shape the narrative
and let them know, woo,

00:18:00.592 --> 00:18:02.613
you got too much detail there.

00:18:02.613 --> 00:18:04.350
You gotta trim this back.

00:18:04.350 --> 00:18:06.309
You lost me, I started to
like, think about other things.

00:18:06.309 --> 00:18:09.123
It's up to me to be honest
and tell my clients this

00:18:09.123 --> 00:18:11.730
so that they realize,
oh, this is danger zone.

00:18:11.730 --> 00:18:13.820
I don't wanna do this
when I'm in front of a CEO

00:18:13.820 --> 00:18:16.713
applying for my CMO job, for example.

00:18:16.713 --> 00:18:20.855
So I'm that honest truth
teller who helps them shape it

00:18:20.855 --> 00:18:24.450
but I feel like a mock
interview is less effective

00:18:24.450 --> 00:18:26.880
because I'm already working
with people for so many months.

00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.319
I'm already giving them
other bits of feedback.

00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:31.118
Let me give you one example.

00:18:31.118 --> 00:18:34.575
I had an incredible
technical engineering leader

00:18:34.575 --> 00:18:37.784
who had lost confidence
in her search process

00:18:37.784 --> 00:18:40.156
because of a lot of things,
difficult to look during

00:18:40.156 --> 00:18:43.710
a pandemic, a reorg that
caused a hundred people

00:18:43.710 --> 00:18:44.543
to get laid off.

00:18:44.543 --> 00:18:46.793
She was in the 10% of leaders
that got, let go, for example.

00:18:46.793 --> 00:18:49.573
So she, when she would appear on video,

00:18:49.573 --> 00:18:52.543
had her hand in front of her
mouth when she would talk

00:18:52.543 --> 00:18:55.025
and she was a bit shrunken back.

00:18:55.025 --> 00:18:57.344
So the first few sessions
I'm getting to know her.

00:18:57.344 --> 00:18:59.850
By the time we start to hit our stride,

00:18:59.850 --> 00:19:01.650
I unpack the awesome sauce, you know,

00:19:01.650 --> 00:19:03.510
the I'm doing the strengths

00:19:03.510 --> 00:19:05.430
and the skills and the uniqueness.

00:19:05.430 --> 00:19:07.541
She starts to blossom
because she starts to see

00:19:07.541 --> 00:19:11.850
and feel the uniqueness but
then I had to call it out.

00:19:11.850 --> 00:19:14.280
Like, you've gotta take your hand away

00:19:14.280 --> 00:19:16.830
from your mouth because you're showing me

00:19:16.830 --> 00:19:18.390
that you're not confident
in what you're saying.

00:19:18.390 --> 00:19:20.250
You're hiding what you're saying.

00:19:20.250 --> 00:19:22.590
So things like that, instead
of doing a mock interview,

00:19:22.590 --> 00:19:25.222
I'm just giving people
guidance all along the way.

00:19:25.222 --> 00:19:27.902
- See, I think that makes perfect sense.

00:19:27.902 --> 00:19:32.729
And that is you are tying expectations

00:19:32.729 --> 00:19:35.534
back to what they're
gonna be prepared to do.

00:19:35.534 --> 00:19:38.790
Many people listen to podcast-

00:19:38.790 --> 00:19:40.170
- Yeah.
- But we also as,

00:19:40.170 --> 00:19:42.990
you know, record this in
video format, but I'm kind of-

00:19:42.990 --> 00:19:45.630
- Yeah.
- Watching you as you speak.

00:19:45.630 --> 00:19:46.830
And if you get a chance,

00:19:46.830 --> 00:19:48.883
my encouragement is don't just listen,

00:19:48.883 --> 00:19:52.260
go back to the YouTube
channel and watch Gina.

00:19:52.260 --> 00:19:55.375
You can just see her kind
of lighten up the screen.

00:19:55.375 --> 00:19:59.220
So I've enjoyed just watching
you talk about something

00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:01.860
you have such a passion for.
- Thank you.

00:20:01.860 --> 00:20:04.440
- What else would you like
to share about storytelling

00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:06.750
that you think is important?

00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:09.780
- Yeah, well, you covered
on a couple that are really,

00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:12.677
really important and being
like the executive presence,

00:20:12.677 --> 00:20:16.389
you know, how we are showing
up and all of these things

00:20:16.389 --> 00:20:19.095
helps us uniquely stand out.

00:20:19.095 --> 00:20:22.170
And I guess what I would have, you know,

00:20:22.170 --> 00:20:24.020
and thank you for that
beautiful compliment,

00:20:24.020 --> 00:20:28.433
what we wanna do is create a
pull strategy for ourselves.

00:20:28.433 --> 00:20:31.353
We wanna be known for
something as an, you know,

00:20:31.353 --> 00:20:34.869
as an expert and as a
thought leader in something

00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:38.670
or that we're creating a
water cooler of conversation

00:20:38.670 --> 00:20:41.880
around ourselves so that we insert ourself

00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:44.679
in the conversation in a
different way, without saying,

00:20:44.679 --> 00:20:47.123
I'm the expert at all of this,

00:20:47.123 --> 00:20:50.618
but I do know something,
I've got something to convey

00:20:50.618 --> 00:20:52.692
and communicate and contribute.

00:20:52.692 --> 00:20:56.160
So when you consider all of that,

00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.620
what we're trying to do when
we're communicating on video

00:20:58.620 --> 00:21:00.757
or otherwise is just
showing that enthusiasm

00:21:00.757 --> 00:21:04.410
and trying to connect with
authenticity, you know,

00:21:04.410 --> 00:21:06.631
on our subject matter expertise

00:21:06.631 --> 00:21:10.288
and to help people want
to come back for more.

00:21:10.288 --> 00:21:13.980
- You use that term authenticity.

00:21:13.980 --> 00:21:14.813
- Mm hm.

00:21:15.863 --> 00:21:20.155
- To some extent, the whole
process of interviewing,

00:21:20.155 --> 00:21:25.155
there's almost artificiality
in the process, is it not?

00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.260
I mean, we almost go to a certain role,

00:21:28.260 --> 00:21:31.118
not only the candidates, but
those kinda interviewing.

00:21:31.118 --> 00:21:36.118
How do you infuse, to use
your word, authenticity?

00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:39.781
How do you help your clients come across

00:21:39.781 --> 00:21:42.210
in their authentic way?

00:21:42.210 --> 00:21:43.590
- Mm hm.

00:21:43.590 --> 00:21:45.120
Another wonderful question.

00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:47.850
I just got off, my previous phone call

00:21:47.850 --> 00:21:49.740
was with one of my clients, a CMO

00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:52.010
of a major brand who
helped grow it from like 40

00:21:52.010 --> 00:21:55.140
to 400 million over the
course of his career.

00:21:55.140 --> 00:21:57.330
And when he first started working with me,

00:21:57.330 --> 00:22:00.455
the challenge was what I would,

00:22:00.455 --> 00:22:02.984
one of my favorite quotes is,
"It's hard to read the label

00:22:02.984 --> 00:22:05.504
when you're inside of the jar."

00:22:05.504 --> 00:22:08.928
And so I'm gonna go back to
unpacking the awesome sauce.

00:22:08.928 --> 00:22:12.525
Once that individual
was really tapped into

00:22:12.525 --> 00:22:15.149
what it was about the leadership skills

00:22:15.149 --> 00:22:19.170
that he'd accumulated
and what makes him unique

00:22:19.170 --> 00:22:23.151
and infusing that you know,
into the storytelling,

00:22:23.151 --> 00:22:26.950
that's where that confidence
started to come out.

00:22:26.950 --> 00:22:29.700
And I just got off this
call and for the first time

00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:32.160
as he's building his SOAR
stories and he just went

00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:35.160
into one naturally, we weren't
even gonna do SOAR story

00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:36.750
stuff today.

00:22:36.750 --> 00:22:38.950
And it was, he was looking
right into the lens,

00:22:38.950 --> 00:22:41.904
leaning forward with
enthusiasm and excitement

00:22:41.904 --> 00:22:45.632
and he got through that
story less than five minutes.

00:22:45.632 --> 00:22:49.258
And it blew my socks off because I was,

00:22:49.258 --> 00:22:51.306
I said, do you know what you just did?

00:22:51.306 --> 00:22:53.760
This is the first time
you really showed up

00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:57.977
and just really communicated
and blew that out of the water.

00:22:57.977 --> 00:22:59.601
It just took time.

00:22:59.601 --> 00:23:02.879
He had to like, get all the
awesome sauce into his bones.

00:23:02.879 --> 00:23:06.306
He knows it's there but he had
to start using the language

00:23:06.306 --> 00:23:07.800
and practicing it with it.

00:23:07.800 --> 00:23:09.270
And we've been writing and journaling

00:23:09.270 --> 00:23:10.830
and doing all these things.

00:23:10.830 --> 00:23:12.990
He's doing informational conversations

00:23:12.990 --> 00:23:15.060
and using that storytelling
time and again,

00:23:15.060 --> 00:23:17.730
to build relationships
and it's just coming now.

00:23:17.730 --> 00:23:21.241
It comes naturally if
you want to work at it.

00:23:21.241 --> 00:23:26.241
- Your word choices are so
descriptive, awesome sauce.

00:23:26.428 --> 00:23:29.460
And when I heard you say
that and you get to bone,

00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:31.093
it almost like you have
to kind of marinate

00:23:31.093 --> 00:23:34.710
for it to kind of to seep in.

00:23:34.710 --> 00:23:36.270
- That's right.

00:23:36.270 --> 00:23:37.620
I always imagine apple sauce,

00:23:37.620 --> 00:23:39.630
but now I'm thinking barbecue sauce.

00:23:39.630 --> 00:23:42.110
- Well, I am too, and I'm getting hungry.

00:23:42.110 --> 00:23:45.518
- Which I'd probably
prefer, barbecue sauce.

00:23:45.518 --> 00:23:47.913
- That makes two of us.

00:23:49.110 --> 00:23:50.461
You know, you just gave a good example

00:23:50.461 --> 00:23:54.030
of a client where it kind of clicked.

00:23:54.030 --> 00:23:55.526
Can you think maybe of another example

00:23:55.526 --> 00:23:58.318
where either you or a client got stuck

00:23:58.318 --> 00:24:01.353
and what did it take to get unstuck?

00:24:02.511 --> 00:24:06.150
- Well, I actually think
that this last client

00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:07.740
that I was just referring to,

00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:09.737
it was like a matter of practice.

00:24:09.737 --> 00:24:13.368
Most of my clients, what I see,

00:24:13.368 --> 00:24:15.562
the people that appear at first

00:24:15.562 --> 00:24:18.961
are people who are proud of a career,

00:24:18.961 --> 00:24:21.246
a career that they've really grown

00:24:21.246 --> 00:24:23.078
and developed and cultivated,

00:24:23.078 --> 00:24:26.430
but they feel stuck on
explaining that in a way

00:24:26.430 --> 00:24:31.140
that helps them come across
with humility and with clarity.

00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:33.911
And so I have so many stories.

00:24:33.911 --> 00:24:36.033
That was the question though, right?

00:24:38.067 --> 00:24:40.590
I think this last example
is really one of them

00:24:40.590 --> 00:24:42.870
is I don't know how to tell my story

00:24:42.870 --> 00:24:45.660
and then going back to building up

00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:49.813
the micro pieces and practicing
it to help you get there.

00:24:49.813 --> 00:24:52.680
But most of my people do transition

00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.871
into that next opportunity
and that's really

00:24:55.871 --> 00:24:58.325
what it's all about is going from point A,

00:24:58.325 --> 00:25:00.485
building that the stories up,

00:25:00.485 --> 00:25:02.580
networking your fanny off, you know,

00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:05.236
you've gotta build and
nurture your network.

00:25:05.236 --> 00:25:08.670
And then that is the outcome.

00:25:08.670 --> 00:25:11.070
Is that something happens
because you're tapping

00:25:11.070 --> 00:25:13.464
into the hidden job marketplace.

00:25:13.464 --> 00:25:16.410
- Gina, you didn't say this,
but what kind of popped

00:25:16.410 --> 00:25:19.823
in my head, it seems as if
in today's business climate,

00:25:19.823 --> 00:25:24.823
we are just looking to the
next whatever it might be.

00:25:25.110 --> 00:25:28.080
The next day, the next
week, the next quarter,

00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:29.940
perhaps the next year.

00:25:29.940 --> 00:25:33.407
And what you're sharing is when
you're working with clients

00:25:33.407 --> 00:25:37.174
who maybe have a career to reflect on,

00:25:37.174 --> 00:25:42.138
is how do you reflect on
a 20 or 30 year career

00:25:42.138 --> 00:25:47.138
and come across in a way that is succinct

00:25:47.936 --> 00:25:52.140
but it tells the story
in a compelling fashion

00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:54.750
that you should write the
right balance of humility

00:25:54.750 --> 00:25:58.680
and not humility, I guess-
- Right.

00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:00.810
- Come across not, come across arrogant

00:26:00.810 --> 00:26:02.067
if you will.
- Right.

00:26:02.067 --> 00:26:04.607
- You know, as we've been
talking about storytelling,

00:26:04.607 --> 00:26:08.400
I wanted to make sure that
we cover that topic well,

00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:12.570
but at the same time, you have capability

00:26:12.570 --> 00:26:15.570
to speak on a wide variety of topics.

00:26:15.570 --> 00:26:19.410
As you kind of reflect on
what we've discussed thus far,

00:26:19.410 --> 00:26:22.237
what do you wanna make
sure that our listeners get

00:26:22.237 --> 00:26:24.420
in this conversation?

00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:25.874
- Oh boy.

00:26:25.874 --> 00:26:28.800
I think a great end cap, you know,

00:26:28.800 --> 00:26:32.400
as we move forward in our conversation

00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.995
is it's up to each of
us to not be the world's

00:26:35.995 --> 00:26:38.100
best kept secret.

00:26:38.100 --> 00:26:40.390
We cannot expect to do our job,

00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:43.242
blow it out of the water,
and then for opportunities

00:26:43.242 --> 00:26:45.210
to just fall in our laps,

00:26:45.210 --> 00:26:47.580
no matter what stage
you are in your career.

00:26:47.580 --> 00:26:49.764
It's very harmful in the
early part of your career

00:26:49.764 --> 00:26:52.920
and then it becomes very damaging

00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:56.231
when you're 25 years in
and you realize I'm itchy,

00:26:56.231 --> 00:26:58.782
I'm gonna get redeployed or laid off

00:26:58.782 --> 00:27:01.780
or something's happening
that's causing a transition

00:27:01.780 --> 00:27:04.082
and then we're completely stuck

00:27:04.082 --> 00:27:07.590
'cause we haven't created
the pull strategy, right?

00:27:07.590 --> 00:27:11.078
So having a healthy network of individuals

00:27:11.078 --> 00:27:14.680
that we are collaborating with
outside of our organizations.

00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:17.490
A lot of the people that I
end up coaching have come

00:27:17.490 --> 00:27:22.020
from major marquee organizations.

00:27:22.020 --> 00:27:24.321
And they're like, I've had
this great career for 25 years

00:27:24.321 --> 00:27:26.970
across a global organization,

00:27:26.970 --> 00:27:29.617
but I don't know anybody outside of it.

00:27:29.617 --> 00:27:31.170
That's a huge problem.

00:27:31.170 --> 00:27:35.430
And what if you wanna get a
job within the same ecosystem

00:27:35.430 --> 00:27:37.770
but another company and
you haven't developed

00:27:37.770 --> 00:27:41.010
the relationships and all of
your peers who got laid off

00:27:41.010 --> 00:27:43.320
are also vying for those same limited jobs

00:27:43.320 --> 00:27:44.670
at the leadership level?

00:27:44.670 --> 00:27:47.285
It's really damaging to one's ego

00:27:47.285 --> 00:27:51.448
if we are now considered the
world's best kept secret.

00:27:51.448 --> 00:27:53.220
- Mm.

00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:54.540
Let's talk about ego a little bit,

00:27:54.540 --> 00:27:59.006
particularly when people are
maybe forced into a transition.

00:27:59.006 --> 00:28:03.210
Do you find that that occupies
a fair amount of the time,

00:28:03.210 --> 00:28:05.040
particularly early on when you're working

00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:08.793
with a client that the ego
has taken a bit of a hit?

00:28:09.750 --> 00:28:11.220
- Oh my goodness, yes.

00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:14.580
Mo most people, yes,
but to varying degrees.

00:28:14.580 --> 00:28:19.080
So I worked with a
person who was at the top

00:28:19.080 --> 00:28:23.379
of the organization who
ran into a situation

00:28:23.379 --> 00:28:25.980
where there was a parting of ways based on

00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:28.637
a disagreement in strategy and direction.

00:28:28.637 --> 00:28:31.920
And that hadn't happened in
the person's career before.

00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:36.300
And so there was this huge hit to the ego

00:28:36.300 --> 00:28:38.550
and then a long, it's very difficult

00:28:38.550 --> 00:28:40.560
to replace top leadership roles.

00:28:40.560 --> 00:28:42.960
So there was a couple years of reflection

00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:45.750
and wondering is anyone going to call me?

00:28:45.750 --> 00:28:47.190
And when we started working together,

00:28:47.190 --> 00:28:49.212
we were building that foundation

00:28:49.212 --> 00:28:52.007
of someone who's very accomplished,

00:28:52.007 --> 00:28:54.068
who has managed and led more people

00:28:54.068 --> 00:28:56.860
and more money than I will ever see.

00:28:56.860 --> 00:29:00.084
And then, you know, trying
to build up the stories

00:29:00.084 --> 00:29:03.630
and me being a mirror
for the awesome sauce

00:29:03.630 --> 00:29:07.110
as we were referring to so
that when we got to the point

00:29:07.110 --> 00:29:09.502
of building the high impact stories,

00:29:09.502 --> 00:29:12.150
that they could represent those stories

00:29:12.150 --> 00:29:14.730
with confidence and with humility,

00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:18.120
but there was almost too much
humility at the beginning.

00:29:18.120 --> 00:29:20.223
We had to build the confidence back in.

00:29:21.443 --> 00:29:24.477
- I can see how you would do that.

00:29:24.477 --> 00:29:26.858
And because that was a protracted gap,

00:29:26.858 --> 00:29:31.858
self doubt can really kind of take over.

00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:37.580
You know, in today's climate
I have read statistics,

00:29:37.767 --> 00:29:40.856
but it's something along
the lines that X percentage

00:29:40.856 --> 00:29:45.238
of people are looking for
a job at any given point.

00:29:45.238 --> 00:29:48.667
The numbers I see are kind of staggering.

00:29:48.667 --> 00:29:52.410
Do you believe that most
people kind of have at least

00:29:52.410 --> 00:29:56.850
one eye out for the next
opportunity at all times?

00:29:56.850 --> 00:29:57.683
- Hmm.

00:29:58.530 --> 00:29:59.820
If you're asking me personally,

00:29:59.820 --> 00:30:03.144
do I think most, not necessarily.

00:30:03.144 --> 00:30:05.700
And part of that could
be generational though.

00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:07.693
So I'm a gen Xer.

00:30:07.693 --> 00:30:09.740
I don't necessarily think that,

00:30:09.740 --> 00:30:13.552
and I'm talking broadly, you
know, gen X and boomers aren't,

00:30:13.552 --> 00:30:18.540
we were raised with our
different mentalities

00:30:18.540 --> 00:30:21.615
and each generation has their own methods

00:30:21.615 --> 00:30:23.313
and processes and thoughts.

00:30:23.313 --> 00:30:28.313
But, you know, I entered the
ecosystem of business thinking,

00:30:28.350 --> 00:30:30.270
oh, I might be at this company forever.

00:30:30.270 --> 00:30:33.120
And then, you know, gen X
is pretty well figured out

00:30:33.120 --> 00:30:34.949
by now that that isn't the case.

00:30:34.949 --> 00:30:38.727
But I have a lot of counterparts
in the gen X ecosystem

00:30:38.727 --> 00:30:42.674
who are still at those
companies 20, 25 years later,

00:30:42.674 --> 00:30:45.330
just coming to this realization.

00:30:45.330 --> 00:30:47.640
So how do you get unstuck?

00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:49.200
You know, you, again, it goes back to,

00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:51.840
you have to start building
the healthy network.

00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:53.460
How do you build a healthy network?

00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:55.223
By genuinely being curious
and asking questions

00:30:55.223 --> 00:30:58.471
of people that you are connected
to and not job hunting,

00:30:58.471 --> 00:31:03.000
not asking for a job and
building up a reputation

00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:05.400
for your own thought
leadership in order to make

00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:06.240
that happen.

00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.250
Now, if we're gonna go all the way down

00:31:08.250 --> 00:31:09.990
the younger generations, if you will,

00:31:09.990 --> 00:31:13.980
I'll just say loosely, maybe
they do have their eyes one in,

00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:14.910
one out.

00:31:14.910 --> 00:31:18.330
It's harder for me to say,
but I also think that that

00:31:18.330 --> 00:31:20.093
can trip them up too
because then they can appear

00:31:20.093 --> 00:31:24.390
to be job hoppers or maybe
not get the deeper expertise.

00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:27.270
They may get content expertise
across a range of things,

00:31:27.270 --> 00:31:31.124
but to have mentorship and
some longevity with people

00:31:31.124 --> 00:31:33.227
or a company, there's value to that too.

00:31:33.227 --> 00:31:34.688
- Yes.

00:31:34.688 --> 00:31:37.823
What else would you like
to share about storytelling

00:31:37.823 --> 00:31:41.234
or anything along the lines
of what we've been discussing?

00:31:41.234 --> 00:31:42.310
- Sure.

00:31:42.310 --> 00:31:45.759
I would maybe offer to people,

00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:47.705
how do you start to unpack your stories?

00:31:47.705 --> 00:31:49.744
And there there's a lot of different ways

00:31:49.744 --> 00:31:51.540
and there's a lot of different categories

00:31:51.540 --> 00:31:53.040
that you could place your stories in.

00:31:53.040 --> 00:31:55.110
One could be the stories of challenges,

00:31:55.110 --> 00:31:57.690
and then others could be
stories about the future,

00:31:57.690 --> 00:32:01.788
the future of my work, the
future of your industry

00:32:01.788 --> 00:32:04.290
and your technical space or what have you.

00:32:04.290 --> 00:32:06.367
So starting to noodle out,
you know, and think about,

00:32:06.367 --> 00:32:08.710
well, what do I really wanna be known for?

00:32:08.710 --> 00:32:11.100
And then as a supplement to that,

00:32:11.100 --> 00:32:13.350
look in your ecosystem and turn to people

00:32:13.350 --> 00:32:15.558
who are either your peers,
your mentors, your managers,

00:32:15.558 --> 00:32:19.140
people that maybe serve
as some advisory role

00:32:19.140 --> 00:32:21.111
in your career, personal
board of directors.

00:32:21.111 --> 00:32:24.030
Ask them what they think
you're most known for.

00:32:24.030 --> 00:32:26.845
Ask for three adjectives
that you could be building on

00:32:26.845 --> 00:32:29.160
if you don't wanna go
through an assessment process

00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:29.993
or something.

00:32:29.993 --> 00:32:32.215
What do people already know
like and trust you for?

00:32:32.215 --> 00:32:34.680
And start building up
some stories and think

00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.289
about unique ways that you
could put your own spin on that

00:32:37.289 --> 00:32:39.630
and put that out in your ecosystem.

00:32:39.630 --> 00:32:42.300
It doesn't mean you have to
start becoming a thought leader

00:32:42.300 --> 00:32:44.111
that does a TEDx talk.

00:32:44.111 --> 00:32:46.380
What it could mean is you're
just doing a very short form

00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:49.530
post once a week or every
other week on LinkedIn.

00:32:49.530 --> 00:32:52.090
It might mean that you're
going to launch a study

00:32:52.090 --> 00:32:55.159
and bring in some collaborators
and write a white paper.

00:32:55.159 --> 00:32:58.219
It might be that you
have a content expertise,

00:32:58.219 --> 00:33:01.200
and you've never thought
to offer yourself to speak

00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.360
at a conference or be a panelist.

00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:07.008
There's so many ways that we
as leaders can put ourselves up

00:33:07.008 --> 00:33:10.611
in the front and generate
conversation to attract,

00:33:10.611 --> 00:33:13.919
remember the pull strategy versus push

00:33:13.919 --> 00:33:16.023
when we get stuck in our career.

00:33:16.023 --> 00:33:18.810
- You know, you mentioned
that pull strategy.

00:33:18.810 --> 00:33:20.400
Before we hit the record button,

00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:23.555
you actually shared with
me the pull strategy.

00:33:23.555 --> 00:33:27.218
Whereas you were describing
if you're skeet shooting,

00:33:27.218 --> 00:33:31.410
the way you instruct
someone that you're ready,

00:33:31.410 --> 00:33:33.249
you say pull.

00:33:33.249 --> 00:33:35.800
is that the same concept, pull strategy?

00:33:35.800 --> 00:33:38.070
- Oh my gosh, that is so beautiful.

00:33:38.070 --> 00:33:39.900
I'm gonna have to do a
LinkedIn post on that.

00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:42.627
No, it's not necessarily
what I was talking about,

00:33:42.627 --> 00:33:45.951
but the imagery on that
was like phenomenal.

00:33:45.951 --> 00:33:50.723
Sure, I think you are
signaling to the world

00:33:50.723 --> 00:33:55.723
that your game on when you
create the water cooler,

00:33:56.100 --> 00:33:58.590
when you get your thought
leadership out there

00:33:58.590 --> 00:34:01.828
in a ways that are authentic to you.

00:34:01.828 --> 00:34:04.917
- So if people have been listening

00:34:04.917 --> 00:34:08.210
to this podcast and they're saying, gosh,

00:34:08.210 --> 00:34:11.550
there's so much that Gina
has said that I'd like

00:34:11.550 --> 00:34:13.920
to kinda learn more
about, what's the best way

00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:16.006
for people to reach out to you?

00:34:16.006 --> 00:34:17.327
- Sure.

00:34:17.327 --> 00:34:19.529
I'm at ginarileyconsulting.com.

00:34:19.529 --> 00:34:23.383
I actually have a free webinar on there

00:34:23.383 --> 00:34:25.590
that people can actually download

00:34:25.590 --> 00:34:28.363
and create a crew transition
plan without ever having

00:34:28.363 --> 00:34:30.750
to like pay for or look for a coach.

00:34:30.750 --> 00:34:33.143
You can actually start
laying down that traction.

00:34:33.143 --> 00:34:35.400
I'm also on LinkedIn.

00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:37.260
And if people are listening to the podcast

00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:39.060
and wanna reach out, just let them know

00:34:39.060 --> 00:34:42.033
that you heard us to together
today on the podcast.

00:34:42.033 --> 00:34:46.012
We all get a lot of sales
pitches on LinkedIn.

00:34:46.012 --> 00:34:49.440
So it's great to just let people
know why you're connecting

00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.514
and it makes it so much
easier to say accept,

00:34:51.514 --> 00:34:55.350
and then I always start engaging
immediately with people.

00:34:55.350 --> 00:34:58.391
So those are the two big
places where I spend my time as

00:34:58.391 --> 00:35:01.197
like on my website and
publishing articles there

00:35:01.197 --> 00:35:04.230
and the same on the LinkedIn ecosystem.

00:35:04.230 --> 00:35:07.450
- Well, we obviously will
include both your website

00:35:07.450 --> 00:35:09.252
and your LinkedIn profile-

00:35:09.252 --> 00:35:11.348
- Yeah.
- In the show notes.

00:35:11.348 --> 00:35:14.970
As expected, Gina, this
was a real pleasure.

00:35:14.970 --> 00:35:17.700
Your enthusiasm comes
through loud and clear,

00:35:17.700 --> 00:35:18.930
your knowledge.

00:35:18.930 --> 00:35:22.032
Thank you for sharing that with us today.

00:35:22.032 --> 00:35:24.360
- Oh, it was a great conversation.

00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:26.410
Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

00:35:27.750 --> 00:35:30.394
- Also wanna thank our
listeners for joining us today.

00:35:30.394 --> 00:35:33.045
We upload the latest
episode every Thursday

00:35:33.045 --> 00:35:36.947
to all the major platforms,
including Apple and Spotify.

00:35:36.947 --> 00:35:38.862
So if you've enjoyed this episode

00:35:38.862 --> 00:35:41.926
with Gina, please subscribe.

00:35:41.926 --> 00:35:44.259
Are you trying to grow your business

00:35:44.259 --> 00:35:47.100
and you wanna make sure
you've got the right people,

00:35:47.100 --> 00:35:50.580
process and planning systems
in place to grow smoothly?

00:35:50.580 --> 00:35:52.800
If yes, let's talk.

00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.470
Head over to unstuck.show and schedule

00:35:55.470 --> 00:35:57.930
a quick non-sales call.

00:35:57.930 --> 00:35:59.700
We'll talk about your growth plans

00:35:59.700 --> 00:36:01.920
and I'll offer you some
actionable guidance

00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:05.550
that will help you get back
to growing your business.

00:36:05.550 --> 00:36:07.226
So I wanna thank you for joining us

00:36:07.226 --> 00:36:09.899
and I hope you have picked
up on some tips from Gina

00:36:09.899 --> 00:36:14.090
that will help you get
unstuck and on target.

00:36:14.090 --> 00:36:15.864
Until next time.

00:36:15.864 --> 00:36:18.697
(uplifting music)