Episode 86: When Leaders Encounter Grief: Professionally & Personally with Jinnie Lee Schmid

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(mellow music)

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- Welcome back to the Get
Unstuck and On Target podcast.

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I'm Mike O'Neil with Bench Builders

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and we help growing companies,
especially manufacturers

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improve their people,
process and planning systems

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so they can scale smarter and faster.

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Joining me is Jinnie Lee Schmid.

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Jinnie is the founder
of Changed Navigators

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and is a certified
coach and advanced grief

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recovery specialist.

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Today's topic is when
leaders encounter grief

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both professionally and personally.

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Welcome Jinnie.

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- Hi Mike, thank you
so much for having me.

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- This is a topic that we probably

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haven't covered whatsoever
in this podcast,

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but it's a very, very important topic.

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It's a timely topic.

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And as a starting point,

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let me share a quote from
your website for our listeners

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just to see to what extent
might this topic apply to them.

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So it reads, I know you.

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You're used to being a high performer

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and you have the
achievements to show for it.

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You've worked hard to pursue your dreams

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and design a life that works for you

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and feeds your passions.

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Maybe you already have,
but lately something's

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been dragging you down, holding you back.

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Do you struggle with any of these issues?

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I have trouble staying
focused on tasks and projects.

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I can't get motivated for the work,

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play and or self care
that I used to enjoy.

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I'm exhausted all the
time, have low energy,

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sleep too much or can't sleep well.

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I'm relying on food or
alcohol, drugs, sex,

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shopping to make me feel better
with diminishing results.

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I feel overly emotional, sometimes tears

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or anger leak out at the wrong times.

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Or I feel numb inside,
isolating, unwilling,

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or unable to connect
with people that I love.

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Or I'm constantly wondering
what's wrong with me,

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is this normal?

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Jinnie writes if you can
relate to any of these

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you maybe dealing with grief.

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I love how you worded that.

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My hope is as listeners heard that,

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that if they are perhaps
experiencing any or of these items,

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that this conversation might be of benefit

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to them as a starting point, Jinnie,

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you and I have had a
chance to get to know each

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other prior to this podcast.

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I know a little bit about your story

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but I think our listeners
would be interested

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in how does one come to be a
grief and transition coach.

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A little bit, tell us about your journey

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that brought you to this point.

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- Thank you.

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Yes, I will.

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Gosh, reading that list I'm
so glad you shared that.

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I appreciate that as a great idea.

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And reading that list
kind of brings me back

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to when I was feeling that way.

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And I think a lot of us can check off

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at least some of those boxes
on any day of the week.

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And one of the things I've learned

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as a grief recovery
specialist is all of us

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are carrying a backlog of grief.

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So I just wanna echo your
call to your audience

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that I want people to know
that if you're struggling

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with any of those things you don't have

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to stay stuck in that place.

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And that's why we're together today.

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So it's exciting to have an opportunity

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to bring this message.

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So, but let me answer your question.

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So my experience is I had a
pretty traumatic childhood

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and the way I responded
to it is, you know,

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turned into a high achiever, overachiever,

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perfectionist, people pleaser.

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I know a lot of other women
who are high performers

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with kind of that background
and for kind of that reason.

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And what I realize now was that

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what I call a chaotic childhood really

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included a lot of grief
that never got addressed

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much less or even really
acknowledged as grief.

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And I think part of what
compounded that for me was

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I was raised part-time by my grandparents

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who were members of the
greatest generation.

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And as you know, not a lot of time

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for sitting in those emotions, right?

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Like those are pull yourself
up by your bootstrap

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and move on to the next
challenge kind of people.

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So I learned a lot of great
tools about that from them

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but I didn't learn, you
know, the emotional,

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how to take care of
myself and the importance

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of staying clean and
healthy with your emotions

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and your mindset.

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So long story short,
when my grandmother aged

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she came to live with me in Atlanta

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for the last decade of her life.

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She had raised me when I was a child.

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I took care of her in her final decade.

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When she passed, I was pretty devastated.

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And I experienced being
in really debilitating

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worsening grief over the
course of nine months,

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realizing I didn't have
any tools to deal with it

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nor did I know where to
go for any help, right?

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So I was really kind
of in a downward spiral

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using a lot of tools that
weren't really working.

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My tool was basically what I
call academy award recovery,

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which is pretending everything's all right

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and doing all I could to
convince myself and others.

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So at about nine months, right at the time

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when I was thinking
this is getting serious

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and I'm, you know,
something bad's gonna happen

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if I don't find a solution to this,

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I received a letter from
my grandmother's hospice

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inviting me to something called
the grief recovery method.

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And I went through that program.

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It literally changed my life
above and beyond just grief.

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And then they said you could
get certified in the work.

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And I was like, okay, well, this is it.

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You know, it felt like
all the different skills

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and passions that I had came
together in this opportunity.

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And I, having experienced what it's like

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for a high performing woman
to be struck down by grief,

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there's really a double whammy of,

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in addition to feeling
so emotionally challenged

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and physically challenged
we have all this pressure

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on ourselves 'cause we're so
used to being high performers.

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So it's a really difficult place to be in.

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So that's the audience that
I mostly have a heart for.

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Men too, of course, but you know,

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my lived experience is as
a high performing woman.

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So that's how it helped me understand

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who I wanted to serve with this work.

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- Now you moved from a different role

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into this current role.

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Tell us a little more
about what you were doing

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professionally when you
made this transition.

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- Yeah, thank you for being interested.

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I actually was a management consultant

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for the entirety of my
career before transitioning

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into this coaching work.

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And I was actually in
learning and development

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and performance improvement.

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So my background was a lot of training

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and development and coaching.

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And so that's why I say when I discovered

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this nature of coaching and how important

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it is for people to have a resource

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around grief specifically,
it kind of was a great blend

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with the change management background

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that I was already bringing.

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It helped me understand why humans

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have so much trouble with change.

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Hint, it's because of the grief that comes

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along with losing and changing things.

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So it was just a really great marriage.

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And so I went from, I had
been a management consultant

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in all the different ways you can be,

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global, firm, small boutique firm,

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and then working for myself and running

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my own small consulting firm.

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So again, it was just a really
great switch to just pivot

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into focusing on doing
this kind of coaching work

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which is so satisfying and
I think really important.

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- You know, what I was introduced to you,

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I didn't even know about
your work in grief.

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I knew you as a management
consultant who operated

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kind of in the same areas that that I do.

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- Yes.
- And so I felt

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I'm gonna have a natural
kinship with Jinnie

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if nothing else, because of
our professional backgrounds.

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But it was in that conversation
that I kind of learned

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about your passion and how you
have taken what you have done

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professionally, your entire career

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and you use the word pivot,
you pivot to your current role.

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We are recording this
both in United States.

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We are both in the same state.

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We're both speaking from
the state of Georgia

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and in the United States
compared to other countries,

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how do we as Americans deal with grief?

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- Mm, that's a good
question and I don't know

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that I have enough of a global perspective

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to compare how we deal with
it versus other countries.

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'Cause of course each
culture has a different way

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of dealing with grief.

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Right now I'm working
with a woman of descent

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from the country of India and I'm learning

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some interesting thing about her cultures

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and how they deal with grief.

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Again like Americans,
not always successfully

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or productively, but you
know, the different ways

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that their traditions and habits.

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Anyway, long story short is I don't think

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there are many people on earth

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that naturally know positive
ways to deal with their grief.

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And I want to give a lot of
grace to previous generations

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because the truth is we're
all doing the best we know,

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but at least in America
and I think worldwide

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we're really soaked in about six myths

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about the right way to "deal with grief."

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And most of those are pretty unproductive.

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So our parents learned from their parents,

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learned from their parents
and they learned things like

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grieve alone, never let 'em see you sweat.

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Stay busy, time will
pass, you'll feel better.

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Be strong for yourself,
be strong for others.

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And so we have all these, our
culture kind of teaches us

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a lot of wrong ways to deal with grief.

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Basically it teaches us
to run from our emotions

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really vigorously as well
as pretend they don't exist.

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And so what happens is
that's where that backlog

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of grief that I was talking about, right?

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Like we're all caring around
unresolved unaddressed grief,

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partly because certain
events were never categorized

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as causing grief and so we
didn't acknowledge them that way.

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And secondly, most importantly,

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because we don't really know what to do

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when we're having those feelings.

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- You know, I asked that question,

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I kind of sprung it on you but
I know that we have listeners

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who have downloaded
episodes from 36 countries.

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- That's awesome.

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- And as a result, I'm
trying to be attuned

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to who our listeners are and what might be

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any cultural influences.

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- Yeah.
- I'm gonna generalize

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and that is death.

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And I know grief is a result
of things more than just death,

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but just the discussion of death,

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it seems as if in certain
cultures it's almost taboo.

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You just don't go there.

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And you mentioned the six myths,

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I think is how you rephrased that.

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Were you listing some of those earlier,

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were those the myths or other things

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come to mind?
- Yes.

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The ones that I mentioned
right around saying

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the word myths was don't,
grieve alone, don't feel bad.

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This is a test now to
see if I can remember

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all three of them.

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Be strong, replace the loss,
stay busy and time will heal.

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Oh, those are the six myths.

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- And there are myths,
and what are you finding

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in your working and working
with those who are grieving is

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are those myths hard to debunk

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in your client's minds?
- Oh, yeah.

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For sure.

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But it's kind of an interesting experience

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because I always start a new engagement

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by reviewing those myths
because it's important

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for us each to know which
ones are kind of baked into us

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from how we grew up.

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And it's funny, sometimes the baking comes

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because people told us
specifically don't cry,

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go to your room or be
strong for your brother

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or something like that.

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Sometimes they were just modeled for us

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without any language, but we figured out

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how we're supposed to act and
how we're not supposed to act.

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So we always go pretty deep on that

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in one of our early sessions.

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And yes, they're strongly
baked in and it's interesting

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because different families or
cultures of origin will favor,

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you know, two or three out of them, right?

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Like we probably all grew
up where we were taught two

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or three of them really strongly.

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But it's also really cool
because once we start talking

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about it, people recognize
it and they can say, oh yes.

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You know, I was taught that,
I can see it's not working

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and it kind of opens up
for a new possibility

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for what to do instead.

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So it's a pretty valuable
resource I think, reference point.

00:12:44.220 --> 00:12:45.690
- You know, I introduced that the topic

00:12:45.690 --> 00:12:47.719
that we will be discussing would be

00:12:47.719 --> 00:12:50.061
from the perspective of leaders.

00:12:50.061 --> 00:12:55.061
My understanding is most of
our listeners are leaders.

00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:58.143
And when you're in a leadership role,

00:12:59.010 --> 00:13:01.320
you are not only leading others

00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:05.580
but others are watching
you and how you behave.

00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:07.740
And so I actually spell that out in terms

00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:10.890
of when leaders encounter grief

00:13:10.890 --> 00:13:13.952
both professionally and personally.

00:13:13.952 --> 00:13:17.520
We've kind of talked a
little bit about encountering

00:13:17.520 --> 00:13:18.420
it personally.

00:13:18.420 --> 00:13:20.670
How about professionally?
- Yeah.

00:13:20.670 --> 00:13:22.635
- What implications have
you found that we need

00:13:22.635 --> 00:13:24.603
to be aware of as leaders?

00:13:25.590 --> 00:13:29.280
- Well, as you said, there's
at least two aspects of this

00:13:29.280 --> 00:13:30.630
and probably more.

00:13:30.630 --> 00:13:32.850
I think so number one in today's world,

00:13:32.850 --> 00:13:34.566
which is such a crazy world, and even

00:13:34.566 --> 00:13:38.520
in the last seven days we've
had multiple pieces of bad news

00:13:38.520 --> 00:13:39.629
of tragic events.

00:13:39.629 --> 00:13:43.440
So it's kind of hard to be tone deaf

00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.720
about the existence of
grief anymore, right?

00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.510
So that's one way where
leaders can step up.

00:13:48.510 --> 00:13:50.850
We can't kind of pretend
it's not happening anymore

00:13:50.850 --> 00:13:53.460
because I guess this rolls into things

00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:55.380
like the great resignation, right?

00:13:55.380 --> 00:13:57.990
Like people are dissatisfied at work,

00:13:57.990 --> 00:14:00.360
people are struggling
at work largely because

00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:01.950
of what they're dealing
with outside of work.

00:14:01.950 --> 00:14:04.410
So again, we have to
acknowledge that things

00:14:04.410 --> 00:14:08.580
are tough right now and as
leaders maybe also ideally

00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:11.130
be a little open minded about
what kind of accommodations

00:14:11.130 --> 00:14:14.280
we can make for people
both on the general sort

00:14:14.280 --> 00:14:17.670
of employee engagement
level but also individually.

00:14:17.670 --> 00:14:20.610
So one of the things I've
started talking to leaders about

00:14:20.610 --> 00:14:23.640
is how can you support
a person on your team

00:14:23.640 --> 00:14:25.830
that you know is experiencing grief?

00:14:25.830 --> 00:14:27.630
Let's say someone who, you know,

00:14:27.630 --> 00:14:29.250
has lost a beloved family member

00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:32.400
or has started their own journey

00:14:32.400 --> 00:14:34.010
through disease or something like that.

00:14:34.010 --> 00:14:36.661
How can we make reasonable
accommodations for those folks

00:14:36.661 --> 00:14:39.750
like we might for an employee
that broke their ankle, right?

00:14:39.750 --> 00:14:43.336
Like there are, I can't
give specific lists

00:14:43.336 --> 00:14:45.600
because each leader in each
workplace is different.

00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:47.640
But I do think there are
ways to make accommodations

00:14:47.640 --> 00:14:49.769
where you don't have to
sacrifice performance.

00:14:49.769 --> 00:14:52.452
You know, the point is to let anyone slide

00:14:52.452 --> 00:14:54.780
for X number of weeks or months,

00:14:54.780 --> 00:14:56.700
but it's to give them the space to heal

00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:58.874
just like they would
from a physical problem.

00:14:58.874 --> 00:15:01.650
And, and then, you know, get back

00:15:01.650 --> 00:15:04.142
to fighting shape where they
can maintain good performance

00:15:04.142 --> 00:15:06.660
during that season, which by the way,

00:15:06.660 --> 00:15:08.730
will be helped when they
know that you care enough

00:15:08.730 --> 00:15:10.590
to support them through
that season, right,

00:15:10.590 --> 00:15:13.410
as well as loyalty and,
and ongoing engagement.

00:15:13.410 --> 00:15:15.300
And then help them get
back up to fighting weight

00:15:15.300 --> 00:15:18.270
to where they can perform as you have come

00:15:18.270 --> 00:15:19.103
to expect them to.

00:15:19.103 --> 00:15:20.850
But again, we high performers,

00:15:20.850 --> 00:15:23.883
we want to be doing a great
job in our work, right?

00:15:24.838 --> 00:15:27.210
So I think everyone can be
on the same team about that.

00:15:27.210 --> 00:15:29.758
So that's one example about
how I can get really tactical

00:15:29.758 --> 00:15:33.380
for a leader, as well as
just knowing about grief.

00:15:33.380 --> 00:15:37.481
- So Jinnie, you drew a
parallel and that is as leaders

00:15:37.481 --> 00:15:42.233
if we have someone on our team
who is dealing with grief,

00:15:42.233 --> 00:15:46.080
there may be value in to kind
of view that the same way

00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:49.890
if they were dealing with
a physical impairment,

00:15:49.890 --> 00:15:53.940
a physical injury that
these things take time

00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:56.100
and we need to be in the position

00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:59.440
to grant that time, to
show a bit of grace.

00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.790
But then you mentioned as high performers

00:16:02.790 --> 00:16:07.790
we still expect them
to continue to perform.

00:16:08.430 --> 00:16:10.470
And so I guess what I'm sensing is

00:16:10.470 --> 00:16:14.246
your challenge to us is how
do you find that balance?

00:16:14.246 --> 00:16:15.690
- Yes.

00:16:15.690 --> 00:16:17.829
And I mean, this is
where my own experience

00:16:17.829 --> 00:16:20.850
as a change management consultant,

00:16:20.850 --> 00:16:22.680
a performance improvement
consultant, right,

00:16:22.680 --> 00:16:24.570
we're always trying to level, you know,

00:16:24.570 --> 00:16:27.300
at least maintain the
significant performance,

00:16:27.300 --> 00:16:28.890
but usually level it up, right?

00:16:28.890 --> 00:16:32.280
So I'm really clear that
nobody who runs a business

00:16:32.280 --> 00:16:34.741
or a team wants to sacrifice performance,

00:16:34.741 --> 00:16:37.350
but nor do you wanna, you know,

00:16:37.350 --> 00:16:39.029
wear out your resources so much that

00:16:39.029 --> 00:16:41.323
they no longer can perform
for you at all, right?

00:16:41.323 --> 00:16:43.999
So just to give a few examples, again,

00:16:43.999 --> 00:16:46.410
let's stick with the
example of an employee

00:16:46.410 --> 00:16:47.730
that maybe broke their ankle.

00:16:47.730 --> 00:16:49.800
What are some of the
things a leader might do?

00:16:49.800 --> 00:16:52.228
They might provide a backpack
or a rolling case, right?

00:16:52.228 --> 00:16:55.098
You might provide them to
work from home for a few weeks

00:16:55.098 --> 00:16:57.990
while they really can't
get around on crutches.

00:16:57.990 --> 00:16:59.520
You might provide them a little grace

00:16:59.520 --> 00:17:01.260
as to what time they come into the office,

00:17:01.260 --> 00:17:02.520
what time they leave the office,

00:17:02.520 --> 00:17:04.530
when they leave for appointments, right?

00:17:04.530 --> 00:17:07.879
So we're talking about
relatively small accommodations

00:17:07.879 --> 00:17:11.700
and things that we probably
wouldn't think twice about

00:17:11.700 --> 00:17:13.224
for the guy that broke his ankle, right?

00:17:13.224 --> 00:17:16.830
So, but you can see were in the long run,

00:17:16.830 --> 00:17:18.660
they just provide that healing space

00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:19.838
and time that we're talking about.

00:17:19.838 --> 00:17:21.348
Now, here's the other thing,

00:17:21.348 --> 00:17:24.235
particularly for grief
as with a broken ankle,

00:17:24.235 --> 00:17:26.491
we don't wanna provide just time

00:17:26.491 --> 00:17:29.336
and space without any actual healing.

00:17:29.336 --> 00:17:31.590
Like if the guy with the
broken ankle never went

00:17:31.590 --> 00:17:34.050
to the doctor that ankle's
not ever going to heal.

00:17:34.050 --> 00:17:37.380
So actually, grief is like a broken bone.

00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:39.000
It's a broken heart, right?

00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:42.150
Like instead of a physically
visible, broken leg,

00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:43.590
it's a broken heart.

00:17:43.590 --> 00:17:46.260
So during this time and
space that you're providing

00:17:46.260 --> 00:17:48.218
I think it's also important
to bring in an expert

00:17:48.218 --> 00:17:50.016
to support that person, right?

00:17:50.016 --> 00:17:52.254
So if you had a broken leg,
you'd go to a bone doctor.

00:17:52.254 --> 00:17:54.870
If you have a broken
heart, you need someone

00:17:54.870 --> 00:17:56.340
who's an expert in grief.

00:17:56.340 --> 00:17:58.410
There's a whole cadre of people like me

00:17:58.410 --> 00:18:00.718
that are advanced grief
recovery specialists.

00:18:00.718 --> 00:18:03.180
There are also counselors.

00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:05.399
Not every counselor is expert in grief,

00:18:05.399 --> 00:18:07.290
but there are experts, you know,

00:18:07.290 --> 00:18:10.200
there are counselors that
have that as their main focus.

00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.604
So it's also important
to provide connections

00:18:12.604 --> 00:18:15.302
and resources to the right professionals

00:18:15.302 --> 00:18:18.690
to help facilitate that healing work

00:18:18.690 --> 00:18:20.913
during that healing season of time.

00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:23.970
- Thank you.

00:18:23.970 --> 00:18:27.009
You know, Jinnie, as you
reflect on your career

00:18:27.009 --> 00:18:31.439
working with clients all over the world,

00:18:31.439 --> 00:18:34.766
be it in your management consultant role

00:18:34.766 --> 00:18:38.271
or in your current
role, can you reflect on

00:18:38.271 --> 00:18:41.610
any situation where perhaps you

00:18:41.610 --> 00:18:44.190
or a client got stuck?

00:18:44.190 --> 00:18:47.430
And if that did take
place, what did it take

00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:49.860
to help them or yourself get unstuck?

00:18:49.860 --> 00:18:52.140
- Yeah, well, I think my own story

00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:54.870
is the one that we alluded
to in the introduction

00:18:54.870 --> 00:18:58.050
of sort of having a downward spiral

00:18:58.050 --> 00:19:01.293
over the course of nine months
after my grandmother died.

00:19:02.370 --> 00:19:04.229
My performance was spiraling down.

00:19:04.229 --> 00:19:07.984
I was running my own company
so the phrase I always say is,

00:19:07.984 --> 00:19:10.110
it's a little hard to build your business

00:19:10.110 --> 00:19:12.180
if you don't feel like you
can get out of bed, right?

00:19:12.180 --> 00:19:13.680
So I wasn't getting new clients,

00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.794
I wasn't serving my existing
clients particularly well.

00:19:15.794 --> 00:19:18.555
I was largely responsible
for bringing home

00:19:18.555 --> 00:19:20.306
the bacon in my household.

00:19:20.306 --> 00:19:22.280
So this is a problem, right?

00:19:22.280 --> 00:19:25.140
And actually the emotional challenges

00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:27.156
were exacerbating things between myself

00:19:27.156 --> 00:19:28.860
and my husband as well.

00:19:28.860 --> 00:19:32.250
So my business is now at
risk, my marriage is at risk,

00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:34.680
I've already lost someone
really foundational

00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:36.060
to my existence and identity.

00:19:36.060 --> 00:19:38.873
So I think that's a good
example of being stuck, right?

00:19:38.873 --> 00:19:40.049
The other reason I was stuck was

00:19:40.049 --> 00:19:42.656
because I didn't know there
were any solutions for me.

00:19:42.656 --> 00:19:45.000
You know, like I'd been
to therapy for years.

00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:46.516
If I didn't know how to
fix it with therapy by now,

00:19:46.516 --> 00:19:49.139
what was it gonna do to
go back to, you know?

00:19:49.139 --> 00:19:54.139
So, and again, the solution
that unstuck me at that point

00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.390
was a very divine intervention that got me

00:19:57.390 --> 00:20:00.217
into the grief recovery method program.

00:20:00.217 --> 00:20:03.000
But I do have another example

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:04.950
of a client of mine that was stuck

00:20:04.950 --> 00:20:07.339
and I think she has a
really compelling story too.

00:20:07.339 --> 00:20:11.235
Her name is Susan and she
actually started working with me

00:20:11.235 --> 00:20:15.551
because also of a death in
her family, her father died.

00:20:15.551 --> 00:20:19.661
And so grief recovery helped
her get unstuck about that.

00:20:19.661 --> 00:20:24.150
And then, you know, the
heightened emotional awareness

00:20:24.150 --> 00:20:26.070
she had and the emotional freedom she had

00:20:26.070 --> 00:20:29.250
once she was past that
grief really encouraged her

00:20:29.250 --> 00:20:31.436
to open up and look at
her career situation.

00:20:31.436 --> 00:20:33.831
And she was in a very challenging job.

00:20:33.831 --> 00:20:36.420
She was at a director level and trying

00:20:36.420 --> 00:20:39.810
to level up to the next,
the next career level

00:20:39.810 --> 00:20:42.934
in her company and kind of
just stuck and treading water.

00:20:42.934 --> 00:20:45.022
You know, that situation
where there's so much to do,

00:20:45.022 --> 00:20:47.968
you carry a lot of the
responsibility for it,

00:20:47.968 --> 00:20:50.998
you're not sure who else you
can trust in your organization

00:20:50.998 --> 00:20:53.546
as a confidant or maybe a mentor

00:20:53.546 --> 00:20:56.374
to help you fill in
the gaps in your skill.

00:20:56.374 --> 00:21:00.004
So she compared her current experience

00:21:00.004 --> 00:21:02.202
to lots of previous work experiences

00:21:02.202 --> 00:21:05.176
and realized they all had
had similar challenges

00:21:05.176 --> 00:21:08.550
and similar dissatisfaction
for her to the point

00:21:08.550 --> 00:21:11.644
where she was kind of killing
herself at work to the neglect

00:21:11.644 --> 00:21:15.120
of her personal life and could
see that that was a pattern

00:21:15.120 --> 00:21:16.440
and wanted to bust out of it.

00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.722
So in a di, we had an ongoing
coaching relationship.

00:21:19.722 --> 00:21:22.708
Sometimes we would dip up
back into grief recovery,

00:21:22.708 --> 00:21:27.012
including reviewing some of
her previous career experiences

00:21:27.012 --> 00:21:29.220
and performing the grief recovery method

00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:32.430
to clear up the emotions around
those, because don't forget,

00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:34.791
we can have a lot of grief if
we've lost either a beloved

00:21:34.791 --> 00:21:37.110
or a really dreaded job, right?

00:21:37.110 --> 00:21:39.540
There's still a lot of
emotions that come along

00:21:39.540 --> 00:21:41.831
with that change, whether
it was by choice or not.

00:21:41.831 --> 00:21:44.430
But we also did some other personal

00:21:44.430 --> 00:21:45.738
and professional coaching.

00:21:45.738 --> 00:21:49.530
And what she found was
she found a new vision

00:21:49.530 --> 00:21:51.210
for what she wanted her life to be like,

00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:53.174
which was more balanced than it had been

00:21:53.174 --> 00:21:56.280
and included some new big personal goals

00:21:56.280 --> 00:21:57.540
that she could get jazzed about

00:21:57.540 --> 00:21:59.484
so she wasn't just so focused on work.

00:21:59.484 --> 00:22:02.700
She found some, a real new commitment

00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:05.820
to some self care routine so
she could maintain her health

00:22:05.820 --> 00:22:08.550
and her satisfaction
along and along instead

00:22:08.550 --> 00:22:10.665
of get in those stuck places
and have to dig out of them.

00:22:10.665 --> 00:22:14.760
And I was recently reviewing
a call she and I had,

00:22:14.760 --> 00:22:18.000
and she said she got some great outcomes.

00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.410
One of which she said that
constant hum of tension

00:22:21.410 --> 00:22:26.119
and stress and anxiety,
she said that has released

00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:28.283
from her body from the
work that we've done.

00:22:28.283 --> 00:22:31.325
She also said that that
guilt of constantly feeling

00:22:31.325 --> 00:22:33.840
like she had to perform for others

00:22:33.840 --> 00:22:35.730
without any personal satisfaction

00:22:35.730 --> 00:22:37.560
that had been released from her.

00:22:37.560 --> 00:22:40.920
And she's still keeping up
those new self care activities,

00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:43.830
which include things like yoga,

00:22:43.830 --> 00:22:46.170
she is seeing a counselor
for some other issues

00:22:46.170 --> 00:22:48.782
she wanted to talk about, but
she's just really feeling,

00:22:48.782 --> 00:22:50.989
I think she's feeling very vital

00:22:50.989 --> 00:22:53.700
as well as very free emotionally, right.

00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:56.048
And so you can just imagine
the world of possibility

00:22:56.048 --> 00:22:58.260
that opens up, not just at work,

00:22:58.260 --> 00:22:59.918
but for the rest of her life too.

00:22:59.918 --> 00:23:02.253
So it's super exciting work.

00:23:03.330 --> 00:23:07.340
- You just used two terms that
I had never really had heard

00:23:07.340 --> 00:23:09.782
in this context.

00:23:09.782 --> 00:23:14.726
One of 'em was released from
her and that is these things

00:23:14.726 --> 00:23:18.840
that sense of release and then you used,

00:23:18.840 --> 00:23:22.890
you described what she said as the hum of.

00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:23.820
- Yes.

00:23:23.820 --> 00:23:25.473
- I love that phrase.

00:23:27.030 --> 00:23:29.700
- I loved, it was so great
when I heard that from her

00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:31.620
because I immediately recognized that

00:23:31.620 --> 00:23:34.200
and I think of a lot of your
high performing leaders do too.

00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.650
We, and I think we forget,
we probably all have heard

00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:39.600
in a training class somewhere
'cause I know I've written

00:23:39.600 --> 00:23:40.620
some of those training classes,

00:23:40.620 --> 00:23:43.470
they talk about the
fight or flight response.

00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:46.173
And we don't realize how
much that level of adrenaline

00:23:46.173 --> 00:23:49.262
and nervous energy coursing
through our body every day

00:23:49.262 --> 00:23:51.569
really can wear down our physical being

00:23:51.569 --> 00:23:53.730
as well as our emotional being.

00:23:53.730 --> 00:23:56.010
We're just not designed to
be in flight all the time.

00:23:56.010 --> 00:23:57.991
So to me, that's what she was describing,

00:23:57.991 --> 00:24:01.402
that just always being on
edge and kind of vibrating

00:24:01.402 --> 00:24:04.380
and usually out of anxiety
from what other people

00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:05.880
are expecting from us.

00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.690
So that's a big release,
that's an exciting result.

00:24:08.690 --> 00:24:11.220
- You made another comment also,

00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:12.510
and that is we were talking about

00:24:12.510 --> 00:24:14.850
what might would trigger grief.

00:24:14.850 --> 00:24:19.850
And my first reaction was
something negative has happened,

00:24:21.747 --> 00:24:26.747
but you mentioned a job
loss or leaving a bad job-

00:24:29.780 --> 00:24:31.530
- Yeah.
- That that can result

00:24:31.530 --> 00:24:34.680
in grief, meaning you
get away from a negative

00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.570
but you still may be experiencing grief.

00:24:36.570 --> 00:24:37.890
Am I hearing that right?

00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:38.723
- You are.

00:24:38.723 --> 00:24:39.990
Thank you for picking up on that.

00:24:39.990 --> 00:24:41.850
So I have a definition of grief

00:24:41.850 --> 00:24:44.136
that might be surprising for your folks.

00:24:44.136 --> 00:24:49.110
The definition is that grief is a set

00:24:49.110 --> 00:24:53.079
of conflicting emotions
that results from any change

00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:55.920
or ending in a familiar pattern.

00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:59.533
So even if you leave a job on purpose,

00:24:59.533 --> 00:25:02.159
you are making a change and you are ending

00:25:02.159 --> 00:25:03.720
familiar patterns.

00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.450
Everything from how you
drive to work in the morning,

00:25:06.450 --> 00:25:08.760
to how you open your computer,
to where you, you know,

00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:10.216
who you talk to during your day,

00:25:10.216 --> 00:25:12.480
you're making a lot of little changes

00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:15.379
when you leave a job
even if it's on purpose.

00:25:15.379 --> 00:25:19.890
And so there's always feelings of sadness,

00:25:19.890 --> 00:25:23.488
maybe anger, guilt,
when something changes.

00:25:23.488 --> 00:25:25.470
And you know, you can even think about it

00:25:25.470 --> 00:25:26.370
in the other direction.

00:25:26.370 --> 00:25:28.170
Even when you take on a new job

00:25:28.170 --> 00:25:30.390
or when you take on something
else that's really positive,

00:25:30.390 --> 00:25:32.246
like a new marriage or a new baby,

00:25:32.246 --> 00:25:34.620
there are parts of your experience

00:25:34.620 --> 00:25:35.533
that you're letting go of.

00:25:35.533 --> 00:25:37.713
And it's, you know, it's not only okay

00:25:37.713 --> 00:25:41.820
but it's expected to have some
negative emotions with that.

00:25:41.820 --> 00:25:43.320
So this is actually one of the things

00:25:43.320 --> 00:25:44.990
that I like talking about
because I would really like

00:25:44.990 --> 00:25:47.995
to normalize for everyone
that that's okay,

00:25:47.995 --> 00:25:49.514
that's part of the human experience.

00:25:49.514 --> 00:25:51.870
There's nothing to feel guilty about

00:25:51.870 --> 00:25:54.186
if you feel some challenging emotions

00:25:54.186 --> 00:25:56.246
around a happy occasion like a wedding

00:25:56.246 --> 00:25:58.950
or if you feel some positive emotions

00:25:58.950 --> 00:26:01.463
around a challenging change
like the loss of a loved one,

00:26:01.463 --> 00:26:02.330
right?

00:26:02.330 --> 00:26:04.607
Like, you know, like relief
that they're no longer suffering

00:26:04.607 --> 00:26:08.100
or release that you're out
of a caregiving role, right?

00:26:08.100 --> 00:26:10.800
Like grief is always a mix of emotions.

00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:13.251
It's not the name of just one emotion.

00:26:13.251 --> 00:26:15.801
- I appreciate you clarifying it.

00:26:15.801 --> 00:26:18.630
You know, this topic grief is much broader

00:26:18.630 --> 00:26:21.690
than one might think on the surface.

00:26:21.690 --> 00:26:22.523
- Yes.

00:26:22.523 --> 00:26:24.630
- What might be some other
things you'd wanna share

00:26:24.630 --> 00:26:26.670
with our listeners about grief

00:26:26.670 --> 00:26:29.340
that we might not have covered so far?

00:26:29.340 --> 00:26:31.500
- You know what I think, rather than go

00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.180
through a laundry list
I'm gonna let you know

00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:34.740
about something I have coming up

00:26:34.740 --> 00:26:36.870
that if people are
interested in that topic

00:26:36.870 --> 00:26:38.940
they can participate.
- Great.

00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:40.590
- Starting about middle of June

00:26:40.590 --> 00:26:44.550
I'm gonna be doing a live
streaming on LinkedIn and Facebook

00:26:44.550 --> 00:26:47.430
every Thursday at 10 a.m. Eastern.

00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:50.516
And the topic is called
the many faces of grief.

00:26:50.516 --> 00:26:53.658
And the reason why, I'm calling
it like a popup podcast,

00:26:53.658 --> 00:26:57.480
'cause I'm not officially a
podcaster like you at this point

00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.060
in my career, I might be someday.

00:26:59.060 --> 00:27:01.539
But I think there's so many
cool topics to talk about.

00:27:01.539 --> 00:27:03.270
And so that's the idea.

00:27:03.270 --> 00:27:05.322
I'm just gonna have different friends,

00:27:05.322 --> 00:27:09.354
clients and experts come on
and discuss different topics.

00:27:09.354 --> 00:27:12.489
So I'll just run through a few
of them that are top of mind.

00:27:12.489 --> 00:27:15.457
One thing that I've been
noodling on is grief is a thief.

00:27:15.457 --> 00:27:20.130
Another one is grief as career counselor.

00:27:20.130 --> 00:27:22.650
Sometimes grief is what can motivate us

00:27:22.650 --> 00:27:24.463
to make a change in our career.

00:27:24.463 --> 00:27:27.611
I have a colleague, we've
been experimenting with play.

00:27:27.611 --> 00:27:31.590
And so we're gonna talk
about do grief and play

00:27:31.590 --> 00:27:33.087
have anything to do with each other.

00:27:33.087 --> 00:27:34.920
And I don't have an
answer to that one yet.

00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:36.390
I'm just gonna come to the conversation

00:27:36.390 --> 00:27:37.787
and see what unfolds.

00:27:37.787 --> 00:27:39.630
So all sorts of things like that.

00:27:39.630 --> 00:27:42.602
I have a little topic in mind
called grief as a house guest.

00:27:42.602 --> 00:27:45.472
So the point being there
are many different aspects.

00:27:45.472 --> 00:27:47.819
I just thought of another
one I wanted to share.

00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:50.363
Grief as a public health issue.

00:27:50.363 --> 00:27:52.961
How grief can be a root cause to a lot

00:27:52.961 --> 00:27:56.133
of the maladies that we deal
with in our individual health

00:27:56.133 --> 00:27:58.680
and in our collective health.

00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:02.099
So I think it's gonna be a
very interesting opportunity

00:28:02.099 --> 00:28:04.110
just to explore some of those things.

00:28:04.110 --> 00:28:07.530
So wanna let you know if
people look for me on LinkedIn,

00:28:07.530 --> 00:28:12.530
Jinnie Lee Schmid or
Change Navigators, LLC,

00:28:12.702 --> 00:28:15.447
that's probably the best
place to find these lives.

00:28:15.447 --> 00:28:19.869
And I'll also keep my website
Change Navigators, LLC,

00:28:19.869 --> 00:28:21.840
I'll keep that updated as well

00:28:21.840 --> 00:28:25.020
so people can tune into
these as they would like to.

00:28:25.020 --> 00:28:28.890
- I will obviously include those links-

00:28:28.890 --> 00:28:30.150
- Yeah.
- In the show notes

00:28:30.150 --> 00:28:31.830
so people can refer to it.

00:28:31.830 --> 00:28:35.040
Now, we need to let our
listeners in a little secret.

00:28:35.040 --> 00:28:38.314
We are recording this
podcast in early June.

00:28:38.314 --> 00:28:43.314
And as a general rule though
we release these once a week,

00:28:43.656 --> 00:28:47.850
this podcast might not
actually get publicized

00:28:47.850 --> 00:28:50.290
until well after you start this.

00:28:50.290 --> 00:28:51.870
- Yeah.
- And so

00:28:51.870 --> 00:28:56.087
as it stands right now,
this podcast might not even

00:28:56.087 --> 00:28:59.790
go live for another eight to nine weeks.

00:28:59.790 --> 00:29:01.499
- Yeah.
- So that being said,

00:29:01.499 --> 00:29:04.080
people may be hearing it after it started.

00:29:04.080 --> 00:29:06.486
But what my hope is is by
the time they do hear this,

00:29:06.486 --> 00:29:09.428
they would've, you've gotten
kind of a track record

00:29:09.428 --> 00:29:10.770
established.

00:29:10.770 --> 00:29:13.288
Will those be recorded or is it just live?

00:29:13.288 --> 00:29:15.838
- Well, they're gonna be streaming live,

00:29:15.838 --> 00:29:19.440
but that also means they should
stay embedded in the feed

00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:20.550
and so someone could, you know,

00:29:20.550 --> 00:29:22.058
scroll back through the Facebook group

00:29:22.058 --> 00:29:25.219
or through the LinkedIn page and find it.

00:29:25.219 --> 00:29:27.990
And I may also end up
posting them on YouTube.

00:29:27.990 --> 00:29:29.928
So yes, I definitely wanna
capture them for posterity

00:29:29.928 --> 00:29:33.180
and they will be available for people

00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:34.686
to access in perpetuity.

00:29:34.686 --> 00:29:37.239
Hopefully the interest lasts that long.

00:29:37.239 --> 00:29:39.300
- I'm confident it will.

00:29:39.300 --> 00:29:42.109
Now another thing I
wanna ask is resources.

00:29:42.109 --> 00:29:46.290
When people, when I listed these things

00:29:46.290 --> 00:29:50.340
that might be something
that could be an indication

00:29:50.340 --> 00:29:51.420
of grief.

00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:52.770
When you're working with clients,

00:29:52.770 --> 00:29:56.439
do you have go to resources
that you typically share

00:29:56.439 --> 00:29:57.874
with them?

00:29:57.874 --> 00:30:00.382
- A couple of things come to mind.

00:30:00.382 --> 00:30:02.415
Number one, for people
who want to continue

00:30:02.415 --> 00:30:06.510
that exploration beyond that
bulleted list of questions

00:30:06.510 --> 00:30:07.575
that you did at the beginning,

00:30:07.575 --> 00:30:11.460
I have a downloadable
workbook at my website,

00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:13.980
which is changenavigatorsllc.com,

00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:15.480
which we'll post in your notes.

00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:17.610
And so I think that's
a great place to start.

00:30:17.610 --> 00:30:20.700
It's just another way to sort
of take a scan of your life

00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:22.507
and see whether you're
feeling any of those impacts

00:30:22.507 --> 00:30:24.740
from all the life events
you've experienced.

00:30:24.740 --> 00:30:27.553
When I'm doing the work with my clients,

00:30:27.553 --> 00:30:30.087
we use the grief recovery handbook,

00:30:30.087 --> 00:30:32.586
which I'm gonna actually
show you a visual of that.

00:30:32.586 --> 00:30:36.480
Mine looks kind of funny 'cause
I use it quite frequently,

00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:38.700
but it's a purple paperback book.

00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:40.380
It's from the Grief Recovery Institute

00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:41.980
and this is our guidebook.

00:30:41.980 --> 00:30:43.733
It is of course, available on Amazon

00:30:43.733 --> 00:30:46.260
for people who want to
check it out for themselves.

00:30:46.260 --> 00:30:49.740
Let's all be honest, when
you don't have a coach,

00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:51.681
you're less likely to work
through these activities.

00:30:51.681 --> 00:30:54.630
So that's my call out to you
if you're really accountable

00:30:54.630 --> 00:30:56.525
to wanna get your
healing work with a coach

00:30:56.525 --> 00:30:58.950
but I did wanna share
that that's available

00:30:58.950 --> 00:31:00.439
to the general public.

00:31:00.439 --> 00:31:02.460
And again, you know, to be honest,

00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:05.355
I think one of the most
important resources

00:31:05.355 --> 00:31:07.800
is that coach or accountability buddy,

00:31:07.800 --> 00:31:10.979
because it's just hard to step
into this kind of emotional

00:31:10.979 --> 00:31:12.540
work without that.

00:31:12.540 --> 00:31:15.090
And I think one of the
most important things I do

00:31:15.090 --> 00:31:17.460
with my clients is provide that safe space

00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:20.700
in our one-on-one coaching
to where they, you know,

00:31:20.700 --> 00:31:22.710
they have that they can close the door,

00:31:22.710 --> 00:31:24.450
let it all hang out for an hour.

00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:27.210
I swear everyone leaves
the session feeling better

00:31:27.210 --> 00:31:29.400
than when they started it
even if they were dreading it

00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:30.300
that day.

00:31:30.300 --> 00:31:32.760
It's really quite, to do
this work with a coach

00:31:32.760 --> 00:31:35.100
is really an easier and faster process

00:31:35.100 --> 00:31:37.357
than many people may imagine
so I just wanna invite people

00:31:37.357 --> 00:31:39.760
to be open to that
'cause it's not as scary

00:31:39.760 --> 00:31:43.068
as it feels on the front end.

00:31:43.068 --> 00:31:48.068
- For those who are watching
versus just listening to audio,

00:31:48.210 --> 00:31:50.797
perhaps you're on YouTube and
you saw Jinnie raise a book

00:31:50.797 --> 00:31:52.770
and showed hers.

00:31:52.770 --> 00:31:54.150
I'm gonna do the exact same thing

00:31:54.150 --> 00:31:57.108
because if you're watching,
I have that same book

00:31:57.108 --> 00:31:59.440
and I didn't just happen upon this.

00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:03.055
In our podcast prep conversation,

00:32:03.055 --> 00:32:07.890
I had shared that I too was
experiencing a recent loss

00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:10.830
and Jinnie was kind of,
she actually sent me a copy

00:32:10.830 --> 00:32:14.760
of this book that again
was very kind of you.

00:32:14.760 --> 00:32:18.600
So thank you for sharing that with me.

00:32:18.600 --> 00:32:20.400
And I also wanna thank you just

00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:25.320
for just being who you are
and your willingness to,

00:32:25.320 --> 00:32:29.079
this is a tough topic,
but you embrace this topic

00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:33.510
with such positivity and possibility

00:32:33.510 --> 00:32:38.430
and it's very clear to me
that you would be a very much

00:32:38.430 --> 00:32:41.010
a blessing to those who reach out to you.

00:32:41.010 --> 00:32:41.880
- Thank you.

00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:43.710
Well, Mike, I'll let you
in on a little secret

00:32:43.710 --> 00:32:46.218
that makes me giggle.

00:32:46.218 --> 00:32:49.204
I recently started calling myself

00:32:49.204 --> 00:32:54.204
the world's happiest
grief coach and it's funny

00:32:55.170 --> 00:32:56.790
'cause it's such a dichotomy, right,

00:32:56.790 --> 00:32:58.197
like it's a disconnect.

00:32:58.197 --> 00:33:00.930
And I felt kind of funny
about that for a while.

00:33:00.930 --> 00:33:03.180
And then I thought this
is what it's all about.

00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:05.088
I mean, the point is to show that grief,

00:33:05.088 --> 00:33:07.155
despite what we've been taught for years

00:33:07.155 --> 00:33:09.465
is not just something
you put in your backpack

00:33:09.465 --> 00:33:11.880
and carry around for
the rest of your life.

00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:12.958
You don't have to.

00:33:12.958 --> 00:33:15.270
I don't believe it honors the loved ones

00:33:15.270 --> 00:33:17.493
you've lost to do that because
they would rather see you

00:33:17.493 --> 00:33:21.211
have that vital, free, engaged, happy life

00:33:21.211 --> 00:33:23.430
in your remaining years.

00:33:23.430 --> 00:33:25.800
So I just felt like it
was time to start saying

00:33:25.800 --> 00:33:28.200
that out loud and owning that persona

00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:30.401
because the point is I want people to see

00:33:30.401 --> 00:33:33.142
what the possibilities are.

00:33:33.142 --> 00:33:35.870
So I've had a lot of grief in my life

00:33:35.870 --> 00:33:39.240
and I found a tool that
helped me resolve it.

00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:41.669
And my goal is like you said, bring that.

00:33:41.669 --> 00:33:43.410
I wanna bring that positivity

00:33:43.410 --> 00:33:45.150
and that hope for people
because I think people

00:33:45.150 --> 00:33:48.750
when they're stuck in grief
or if they're carrying around

00:33:48.750 --> 00:33:50.520
that backpack of grief
that they don't even know

00:33:50.520 --> 00:33:52.948
what to call it, it's a hopeless feeling

00:33:52.948 --> 00:33:55.680
and there's just nothing,
certainly nothing

00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:57.702
more damaging to our
performance than a lack of hope,

00:33:57.702 --> 00:34:02.677
but also to just our human
life possibilities and so I'm,

00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:04.710
you know, anytime I get a chance

00:34:04.710 --> 00:34:06.450
to help someone take that backpack off

00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:09.437
and step into the rest of
their life, their new normal,

00:34:09.437 --> 00:34:11.250
it's an incredible privilege

00:34:11.250 --> 00:34:13.170
and it's part of what keeps
me the world's happiest

00:34:13.170 --> 00:34:14.531
grief coach, getting
to help people do that.

00:34:14.531 --> 00:34:19.531
- I think that moniker is a
perfect description for you.

00:34:19.704 --> 00:34:24.704
And thank you for sharing
your expertise, your passion,

00:34:24.796 --> 00:34:29.670
and your happiness as we dealt
with this topic of grief.

00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:31.170
Thank you so much.

00:34:31.170 --> 00:34:32.130
- Always my pleasure.

00:34:32.130 --> 00:34:33.483
Thanks for the opportunity.

00:34:34.770 --> 00:34:38.100
- I also wanna thank our
listeners for joining us today.

00:34:38.100 --> 00:34:40.574
We upload the latest episode to Apple,

00:34:40.574 --> 00:34:43.650
Google, and Spotify every Thursday.

00:34:43.650 --> 00:34:46.380
So if you've enjoyed
this episode with Jinnie,

00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:48.139
please subscribe.

00:34:48.139 --> 00:34:49.968
I've got a question for you the listener.

00:34:49.968 --> 00:34:52.230
Is your company growing quickly?

00:34:52.230 --> 00:34:54.540
Are you worried that you
don't have the right people

00:34:54.540 --> 00:34:58.050
and processes in place to
handle that increased workload?

00:34:58.050 --> 00:35:00.001
If yes, let's talk.

00:35:00.001 --> 00:35:04.350
Head to bench-builders.com
to schedule a quick call.

00:35:04.350 --> 00:35:06.150
We'll explore ways to help you solve

00:35:06.150 --> 00:35:11.010
those nagging problems so you
can scale faster and smarter.

00:35:11.010 --> 00:35:12.810
So I wanna thank you for joining us

00:35:12.810 --> 00:35:15.169
and I hope you have picked
up on some tips from Jinnie

00:35:15.169 --> 00:35:19.800
that will help you get
unstuck and on target.

00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:20.703
Until next time.

00:35:21.961 --> 00:35:25.044
(mellow happy music)