Episode 79: The ONLY Reason Relationships Change

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(energetic music)

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- Welcome back to the Get
Unstuck and On Target podcast.

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I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders,

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and we help growing companies,
especially manufacturers,

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improve their people,
process, and planning systems

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so they can scale smarter and faster.

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Joining me today from
Sydney is Cody Butler.

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Cody is the founder of the Better Marriage

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and the creator of the
Marriage Recovery Program

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that teaches couples how to
repair, restore, and rebuild

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intimacy, communication,
and love in their marriage.

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His book, "Cut the B.S: A No
Nonsense Guide to Happiness,"

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is a best seller.

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Welcome, Cody.

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- Thanks for having me on, Mike.

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- This, for, our regular listeners know

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that this is a bit of a
departure from our normal topics,

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but to some extent, it's not.

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Cody, prior to us hitting
the record button,

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I did a little bit looking into,

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and I simply Googled "business
is all about relationships"

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and immediately, 746 million
results popped right up.

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And why is it that, and I'm
asking this rhetorically,

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why is it that when we think
of relationships in business,

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there's some imaginary
line between business

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and one's home life, between
business and one's marriage?

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And in my professional experience in HR,

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I cannot count the number of times

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that when I am working with employees,

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what I learn all too often is that

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if there are issues at
work, all too often,

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those issues originate from home.

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And that applies from
the maintenance floor

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all the way up to the C-suite.

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So I just think this would
be an excellent topic

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for us to discuss, and all that to say,

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there's many things we can talk about

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because you have quite the expertise,

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but let's just jump right in.

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One of the first questions
I'd like to ask you, Cody,

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is what might be the only reason

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that relationships actually change?

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- Yeah, that's a great question, Mike.

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And the answer to that is
really profoundly simple.

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I think everything is,
the secret to everything,

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it's simplicity, but it's on
the far side of complexity

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so we have to go all
the way through complex

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to arrive back at simple.

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And the answer to that question is

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relationships change because we change.

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Relationships change is because,
we've changed the behavior

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that fundamentally built the relationship.

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So, a good example would be when you meet

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your husband or wife,
you behave a certain way.

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You're a salesman, right?

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You're a saleswoman.

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You're doing a sales job on them.

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You're trying to convince them

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that they should go out with
you, then they should date you,

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then they should date you again.

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And you're behaving in a certain way

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and that behavior is
attractive to the other person.

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But once the sale is made, so to speak,

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and the deal is closed,

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then nine times out of 10 or
more often than should be,

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that behavior then changes.

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And what we're actually
attracted to as human beings,

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it's behavior.

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We're attracted to
behavior in other people,

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and we're repulsed by
behavior in other people.

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It's, if I behave well towards
you, Mike, you're gonna,

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we're gonna have a great interview

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and you may even invite me back.

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If I behave poorly,
you're not gonna like me,

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you're not gonna have
very nice stuff to say.

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It's behavior that is gonna
build the relationship.

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And the reason relationships change

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is because we change and
our behavior changes,

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both romantically and in business as well,

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as a matter of fact.

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- So you described that the only reason

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that relationships change
is because we change,

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namely, our behavior changes.

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When one starts a marriage,

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that's a pretty significant change.

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And I know that you and your team

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works with couples on marriage.

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What do you find prompts
an individual or a couple

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to reach out to you most frequently?

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- It's usually a breakdown
of communication.

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So, it's too much fighting,

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not enough communication
and not enough intimacy.

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These are the three main
challenges that couples face.

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And to put it very accutely,
to put it very bluntly,

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women want to talk more,
men want to have sex more

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and nobody wants to fight.

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- Mm.

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That is, that's kind of reducing it.

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I can almost see why you named your book,

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"Cut the BS: A No Nonsense
Guide to Happiness."

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Would you repeat that one more time?

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- Yeah.

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So fundamentally, in a relationship,

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women want to talk more,
men want to have sex more,

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and both of them want less fighting.

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So the women are not getting
enough communication,

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the men are not getting enough
physical intimacy and sex,

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and there's too much fighting going on.

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So, these are the three
issues that are almost always

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present outside of sort of, you know,

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the abusive situation or the outliers.

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This is 99% of marriage breakdowns

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are gonna fall into this
category of problems.

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- So, if one or all three of
those are kind of triggers,

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give us a little bit of a sense of kind of

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how you would help them begin to address

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one or all of those issues.

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Do you typically start
with one of those topics

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more frequently?

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- Yeah, so communication
is the key to everything.

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So, if you want more sex,

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you've gotta be a better communicator.

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If you wanna fight less,

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you've gotta be a better communicator.

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And if you want more
communication, guess what?

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You've gotta be a better
communicator, right.

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If you want more communication
and the other person

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is not wanna talk, wanting to talk to you,

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you gotta look at why.

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And quite often, it's because
it it's too painful, right.

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We're only motivated by
two things as human beings,

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and that is the pursuit of pleasure

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and the avoidance of pain.

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And quite often, communication
just becomes too painful.

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If you make an effort to
communicate and that's punished

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or that's put down or that,

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instead of validating and building up,

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it puts down and negates, invalidates.

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So over a period of
time, the communication

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just becomes too painful
to even attempt anymore,

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and of course, that's where
the communication stops,

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then the sex stops and
then the fighting begins

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because nobody's getting what they want

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out of the relationship at that point

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and everybody's frustrated.

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So, the key really is you've
got to make communication safe.

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You've got to create an environment where

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you're able to speak and
you're able to speak freely

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and you're not gonna
be put down immediately

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and it's not gonna affect
some kind of core need

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that you have, like your significance

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is gonna get beaten up, right.

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We can often speak to our
spouses and we get spoken to

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in such a way that invalidates us

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and destroys core needs
such as significance

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and our sense of self importance,

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which is absolutely essential

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for our happiness and wellbeing.

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So we've gotta lay a foundation
and we've gotta create

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some rules to where
communication becomes safe again.

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All too often, if
communication has stopped,

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it's become, it's stopped
because it's become painful,

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and the reason it's
become painful is because

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there's no safety in the
ability to communicate

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anymore in that relationship.

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- You put such emphasis on
the power of communication

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and our work with clients,

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when companies survey their employees

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as to what is their biggest
complaint about the company,

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the number one answer
that we see all too often

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is poor communication.
- Absolutely.

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- So, I see that in the business setting.

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You mentioned that it's the behavior.

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We change.

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When we go into a marriage,

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sometimes those expectations
kind of go with that.

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When a couple is newly
married, kinda walk us through,

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what is that process most typically like?

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Where do things start to kind of go awry?

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In about what point do you
see that oftentimes happening?

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- So, a lot of times when I say we change

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and that causes the problems,

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obviously we have to change.

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We have to continue to grow.

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It's not like, you know,

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to behave as though you were dating

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when you're married is
completely inappropriate.

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That let me make that clear.

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It's completely inappropriate to do that.

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There has to be change.

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But at the same time, there
has to be a resemblance

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of what's familiar as well.

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So for example, my wife
and I, we met as musicians.

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So she was a vocalist,
I was a guitar player,

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and we came together
through the field of music

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and we used to go out
playing music at night

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and we made our living
together doing that.

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And it was a big, big part of our life.

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But then of course, kids
come along, we get married,

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we have kids come along
and all of a sudden,

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music's not a part of our life anymore.

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So, we've got the part
of our life where we

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actually came together,
where we fell in love,

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where the passion and the
sparks and all of the,

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all of those good emotions were formed.

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All of a sudden, if we're
not careful, if we're not,

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if we don't carefully craft
that aspect of our life

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back into our life, it can just disappear.

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And of course you just
go, well, it's too busy,

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we're too busy, we've got
kids, we can't do this,

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we can't do that.

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But then you've gotta prioritize, right.

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As a young couple, you've
gotta prioritize and say,

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okay, what's important here.

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And to be honest, Mike, it's like,

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there's a lot of examples
of this from the Bible

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to getting on an airline.

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Jesus said, if the
physician wants to get sick,

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who would heal the physician?

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If you get on an airline,
the first thing they tell you

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is if something happens,
put your mask on first.

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- Yes.

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- Because you have to protect yourself.

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If you go down, then you're
no good to anybody, right.

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And we get into these,
we get into marriage

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and we forget that and
we start to get focused

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on the other person or we start
to get focused on the kids

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or we start to get focused on the job.

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Or in my case, I started a
business when we got married

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and started to get focused on the business

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and stuff like that.

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And before we know it,
we're focused on everything

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but ourselves and focused on
the things that are important

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and we start to forget
the things that made us

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fall in love with each other.

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So you've really gotta guard that.

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You've really gotta protect that.

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And you've gotta, routine is
the key to making this work.

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You've gotta build that into your routine.

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- You described that your marriage

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started with a relationship
that centered around music.

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And that was kind of the context
in which y'all interacted.

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Presumably you got married,
you began having children.

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How many children do you have?

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- Three children, Mike.

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- And what are their genders?

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- All male. Yeah, all male.

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- That's what I thought.

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We are the proud parents of three sons.

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And you mentioned about children.

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What is it about children?

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In what ways, let's start with,

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in what ways do children
enhance a marriage?

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- So, they give a, something
to protect together.

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They give common cause where
there's little argument.

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We're gonna protect our children,

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we're gonna do what's in the best,

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we're gonna do what's in the
best interest of our children.

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We can always find common
ground in our children.

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It's common ground.

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It's always gonna be there.

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And it's, we're not gonna
argue that we both have

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our children's best interest at heart,

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and we're gonna do the
best for our children,

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whether that involves our finances,

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whether that involves our time,

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whether that involve, whatever
resource that we have,

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we're not gonna argue.

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So, the best part from
the marriage perspective

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is it does bring some
very solid common ground

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to the relationship.

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- That's a great point.

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Now, the flip side of that,
having a child in a marriage,

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in what ways does that
potentially change the marriage

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or potentially negatively
impact the marriage?

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- Well, it's like the
airline situation, right.

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We're in an emergency situation
and the masks have come down

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and both parents are putting
the masks on their kids.

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So, you can get too focused on those kids

00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:02.173
and it's like the marriage
is not about those children.

00:12:03.090 --> 00:12:06.010
The marriage is about you and your wife

00:12:06.010 --> 00:12:07.000
or you and your husband.

00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:08.430
It's like now those children are critical

00:12:08.430 --> 00:12:10.540
and they have to be given
every attention, but it's like,

00:12:10.540 --> 00:12:13.290
you can't make the child or the children

00:12:13.290 --> 00:12:14.870
the focus of your marriage.

00:12:14.870 --> 00:12:18.010
Your wife or your husband
has to remain that focus

00:12:18.010 --> 00:12:20.730
or else they're just gonna,

00:12:20.730 --> 00:12:22.920
nobody is getting their
needs met at that point.

00:12:22.920 --> 00:12:25.990
And you can stay in a
situation for so long

00:12:25.990 --> 00:12:27.070
without getting your needs met,

00:12:27.070 --> 00:12:28.430
but eventually you're either gonna leave

00:12:28.430 --> 00:12:31.970
or you're just gonna wither
away and you're gonna fade away

00:12:31.970 --> 00:12:33.430
and you're gonna be a
fraction of the person

00:12:33.430 --> 00:12:34.440
that you once were.

00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.280
And your partner will
just be a spiritless shell

00:12:37.280 --> 00:12:40.073
of who they once were,
really, is the danger.

00:12:41.110 --> 00:12:42.340
- You know, we've talked
a little bit about

00:12:42.340 --> 00:12:46.850
the importance of getting off
to a good start in marriage,

00:12:46.850 --> 00:12:51.570
that the power of recognizing
that what brought you together

00:12:51.570 --> 00:12:53.200
needs to keep you together.

00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:58.200
But then life happens, distractions occur,

00:12:58.390 --> 00:13:01.270
and things start to kind of go awry.

00:13:01.270 --> 00:13:04.220
Earlier, I kind of asked, what
are the things that kind of

00:13:04.220 --> 00:13:08.254
prompt people to reach out to you.

00:13:08.254 --> 00:13:11.770
In terms of the nature of your work,

00:13:11.770 --> 00:13:15.860
can you describe, how do you
help individuals and couples?

00:13:15.860 --> 00:13:16.853
In what ways?

00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:22.370
- So really, in the, as
we mentioned earlier on,

00:13:22.370 --> 00:13:24.780
the three major problems
are communication,

00:13:24.780 --> 00:13:26.160
intimacy and fighting.

00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:29.720
So it's alleviating all
three of those problems.

00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:31.390
So those are the three main areas.

00:13:31.390 --> 00:13:32.750
So it's like, first thing we wanna do is

00:13:32.750 --> 00:13:33.760
we gotta stop the fighting.

00:13:33.760 --> 00:13:36.013
We gotta stop the bickering,

00:13:36.013 --> 00:13:37.860
the fighting, that has to stop.

00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:41.080
We gotta triage the
situation and we've gotta get

00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:42.950
this marriage off of life support

00:13:42.950 --> 00:13:44.250
and into some kind of stable state.

00:13:44.250 --> 00:13:46.740
And it's like, as long as
the fighting is going on,

00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:50.160
as long as there's no mechanism
to stop that fighting,

00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:52.810
then nothing else is gonna happen, really.

00:13:52.810 --> 00:13:54.500
So step one is like, give them a mechanism

00:13:54.500 --> 00:13:55.880
to stop the fighting.

00:13:55.880 --> 00:13:56.713
- Okay.

00:13:56.713 --> 00:13:57.546
- That's the first step.

00:13:57.546 --> 00:14:00.300
The second step is give them
a framework of communication.

00:14:00.300 --> 00:14:03.440
So the framework that I like to use, Mike,

00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.590
is approaching it from this perspective,

00:14:05.590 --> 00:14:07.670
assuming that there's no
major structural issues

00:14:07.670 --> 00:14:10.210
within the marriage, infidelity
abuse, stuff like that.

00:14:10.210 --> 00:14:13.270
As long as, assuming it's
just a, we love each other,

00:14:13.270 --> 00:14:15.430
we just don't know how to
live together situation.

00:14:15.430 --> 00:14:16.860
We love each other, we just don't know how

00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:18.740
to make this work, but we want to,

00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:20.927
then the framework that I like to approach

00:14:20.927 --> 00:14:23.734
the situation where there is one of,

00:14:23.734 --> 00:14:26.410
if I've hurt you, I'm sorry.

00:14:26.410 --> 00:14:27.600
If you've hurt me, you're forgiven.

00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.140
Can we move forward from this point?

00:14:30.140 --> 00:14:31.540
So, traditional therapy is want to,

00:14:31.540 --> 00:14:33.330
is gonna want to go way back into the past

00:14:33.330 --> 00:14:35.930
and discuss a lot of
issues and I'm just like,

00:14:35.930 --> 00:14:38.040
well, you had a fight
when it first happened.

00:14:38.040 --> 00:14:40.690
You've had a fight every single
time it's been brought up.

00:14:40.690 --> 00:14:42.879
And here's the situation, right.

00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.040
You don't even remember what happened.

00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:48.680
The mind distorts, deletes and erases.

00:14:48.680 --> 00:14:51.840
Basically, you only, nobody
remembers what happened

00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:52.930
on that day anymore.

00:14:52.930 --> 00:14:55.620
All we're left with is our
stories about what happened

00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:57.070
and very few facts remain.

00:14:57.070 --> 00:14:59.119
Maybe 1% of the actual
event remains in your mind,

00:14:59.119 --> 00:15:02.040
so can we just approach
it from the perspective of

00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:05.060
if I was wrong, I'm sorry, if
you were wrong, I forgive you.

00:15:05.060 --> 00:15:08.027
I love you, can we move forward and create

00:15:08.027 --> 00:15:10.920
some level ground to move forward on.

00:15:10.920 --> 00:15:14.610
There's no need to assign
blame or any of that stuff.

00:15:14.610 --> 00:15:17.010
It's just like, okay, look,
no one's cheating on anybody.

00:15:17.010 --> 00:15:18.690
Nobody's beaten anybody.

00:15:18.690 --> 00:15:20.200
We love each other.

00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:21.930
If you are wrong, you're forgiven.

00:15:21.930 --> 00:15:23.530
If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

00:15:23.530 --> 00:15:24.730
And that's a great place.

00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:27.670
If couples can do that, it
provides a level playing field

00:15:27.670 --> 00:15:29.470
to move forward, and
then it's like, right,

00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:30.930
here's the problem.

00:15:30.930 --> 00:15:34.810
Every time we talk, we fight,
so we need a framework.

00:15:34.810 --> 00:15:38.170
We need to throw away
the communication styles

00:15:38.170 --> 00:15:39.910
that you currently have
or is currently being used

00:15:39.910 --> 00:15:42.430
and we need to put a framework in place

00:15:42.430 --> 00:15:43.320
where there's rules.

00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:44.410
A, it needs to be safe.

00:15:44.410 --> 00:15:46.060
B, there needs to be rules,

00:15:46.060 --> 00:15:48.160
and C, we've gotta throw out the,

00:15:48.160 --> 00:15:49.440
how you've been communicating.

00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:50.770
We've gotta bring something new in

00:15:50.770 --> 00:15:53.760
because what you're
doing just isn't working.

00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:56.030
And that's the starting point.

00:15:56.030 --> 00:16:00.370
- You mentioned that just
creating an environment by which

00:16:00.370 --> 00:16:04.100
fighting is properly addressed oftentimes

00:16:04.100 --> 00:16:06.410
is a excellent starting point.

00:16:06.410 --> 00:16:08.430
But you also said that what you try to do

00:16:08.430 --> 00:16:13.430
is work with couples to kind
of create a new framework,

00:16:13.640 --> 00:16:16.532
that it would be new behavior.

00:16:16.532 --> 00:16:17.930
- Absolutely.

00:16:17.930 --> 00:16:19.520
- And in terms of what that would be,

00:16:19.520 --> 00:16:23.530
this would be behavior
to, in what ways are,

00:16:23.530 --> 00:16:26.140
is there behavior being
encouraged to change?

00:16:26.140 --> 00:16:26.973
Is it communication?

00:16:26.973 --> 00:16:28.200
- Okay, yeah, great.

00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:29.070
Yes, yes, yes.

00:16:29.070 --> 00:16:29.910
Great question.

00:16:29.910 --> 00:16:32.700
So, the thing to understand
is transformation

00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:34.630
doesn't come about by
exposure to information.

00:16:34.630 --> 00:16:36.660
Transformation comes from
radically seeking out

00:16:36.660 --> 00:16:38.408
and implementing new behavior.

00:16:38.408 --> 00:16:39.241
- Mm.

00:16:40.130 --> 00:16:42.670
- It's radically seeking out
and implementing new behavior.

00:16:42.670 --> 00:16:43.730
So I would say if you're listening,

00:16:43.730 --> 00:16:45.340
if you're listening to
this interview today,

00:16:45.340 --> 00:16:46.340
just pick one thing.

00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:48.310
It's like, you can
listen to the whole thing

00:16:48.310 --> 00:16:50.010
and maybe you go, well, that sounds good.

00:16:50.010 --> 00:16:51.330
Maybe you don't, but hopefully you do.

00:16:51.330 --> 00:16:53.310
But just pick one little thing and go,

00:16:53.310 --> 00:16:56.360
I'm gonna implement this
into the relationship.

00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:57.720
So the behaviors that we're looking,

00:16:57.720 --> 00:16:59.690
there's four behaviors that are

00:16:59.690 --> 00:17:02.660
absolutely catastrophic to a relationship.

00:17:02.660 --> 00:17:04.930
If these behaviors are present,

00:17:04.930 --> 00:17:07.520
you are not gonna have a happy marriage.

00:17:07.520 --> 00:17:08.610
You might stay married,

00:17:08.610 --> 00:17:10.730
but you're not gonna
have a happy marriage.

00:17:10.730 --> 00:17:13.700
And research shows that
the chances of divorce

00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:14.533
are very, very high.

00:17:14.533 --> 00:17:17.840
So these behaviors are,
and this is gonna be

00:17:17.840 --> 00:17:19.410
very valid in business as well.

00:17:19.410 --> 00:17:21.070
The number one behavior that is the cause

00:17:21.070 --> 00:17:24.410
of major, major problems
in marriage is escalation.

00:17:24.410 --> 00:17:26.920
- Okay.
- A habit of escalation.

00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:30.420
So, and that does exactly what
it says on the can, right.

00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:34.110
Mike, it's escalating situations.

00:17:34.110 --> 00:17:34.943
So with all of these behaviors,

00:17:34.943 --> 00:17:36.420
there's the ying and the yang.

00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:39.480
So, it's very obvious for us to see

00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:41.130
that the damage that escalation does.

00:17:41.130 --> 00:17:44.130
So a lot of times we can start
out, a couple will start out

00:17:44.130 --> 00:17:47.420
and they'll have a very small
altercation with each other.

00:17:47.420 --> 00:17:49.250
It may just be a little snarky comment

00:17:49.250 --> 00:17:51.230
or somebody may hear something wrong.

00:17:51.230 --> 00:17:52.063
- Yes.

00:17:52.063 --> 00:17:53.000
- But then the other person escalates it

00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:54.190
and then they escalate it back

00:17:54.190 --> 00:17:55.320
and then they escalate it back.

00:17:55.320 --> 00:17:59.230
And this is 99% of
arguments within a marriage.

00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:02.720
How many arguments have you
had in the last 10 years

00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.060
that were worth having, is my question.

00:18:05.060 --> 00:18:06.220
- Yeah. Very fair question.

00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:09.620
And if my wife is listening,
and I trust she will be,

00:18:09.620 --> 00:18:10.490
you're spot on.

00:18:10.490 --> 00:18:14.350
So there, first thing, first behavior

00:18:14.350 --> 00:18:16.988
that you help with clients is escalation.

00:18:16.988 --> 00:18:17.821
- Escalation.

00:18:17.821 --> 00:18:18.690
So flipping that around.

00:18:18.690 --> 00:18:19.980
So it's like I said, when
you ask the question,

00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:21.860
how many arguments have
you actually needed

00:18:21.860 --> 00:18:23.070
to have over the last 10 years,

00:18:23.070 --> 00:18:24.830
the answer for the most part is zero,

00:18:24.830 --> 00:18:26.090
maybe one or two, right.

00:18:26.090 --> 00:18:29.190
So, it's escalation that's
caused to all those fights.

00:18:29.190 --> 00:18:31.010
Now, the key there is to flip that around.

00:18:31.010 --> 00:18:32.340
And the behavior that we're
looking for obviously,

00:18:32.340 --> 00:18:33.430
is deescalation.
- Okay.

00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:38.430
- So, if we can depart from the habit

00:18:38.830 --> 00:18:40.990
of escalating situations
and we can build the habit

00:18:40.990 --> 00:18:43.390
of deescalation, well, what do you think

00:18:43.390 --> 00:18:45.960
that's gonna do for your relationship?

00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:48.320
If you, if you become a
person who deescalates,

00:18:48.320 --> 00:18:50.130
if you become a manager who deescalates,

00:18:50.130 --> 00:18:52.710
if you become a CEO who deescalates,

00:18:52.710 --> 00:18:56.760
if you're somebody who throws
water on fire, not gasoline.

00:18:56.760 --> 00:18:59.010
Well, what, you know,
it's very self explanatory

00:18:59.010 --> 00:19:01.000
I think what that's
gonna do for every aspect

00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.680
of your relationship,
in every aspect of life.

00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:04.513
- Yes.

00:19:04.513 --> 00:19:09.513
- The second behavior, which
is incredibly destructive,

00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.100
which kind of fuels the
first behavior of escalation

00:19:13.100 --> 00:19:14.993
is negative interpretation.

00:19:16.210 --> 00:19:17.830
- Negative interpretation?

00:19:17.830 --> 00:19:19.394
- Yes.
- Thank you.

00:19:19.394 --> 00:19:20.360
- Negative interpretation.

00:19:20.360 --> 00:19:24.450
So that's negatively interpreting
your spouse's behavior.

00:19:24.450 --> 00:19:26.010
- Okay.

00:19:26.010 --> 00:19:29.300
- So a lot of times. Sorry, go on Mike.

00:19:29.300 --> 00:19:31.760
- So, you're about to explain
negative interpretation.

00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:34.630
That term might be something
you might need to explain.

00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:36.331
- Yeah, so--
- At least for me.

00:19:36.331 --> 00:19:37.340
(laughing)

00:19:37.340 --> 00:19:38.320
- So, I'll give you an example.

00:19:38.320 --> 00:19:40.453
This is just a made up example.

00:19:41.310 --> 00:19:43.230
My wife's parents live
about seven hours from here

00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:44.773
and she asks me the other day,

00:19:46.470 --> 00:19:50.310
I'd like to go, you know, can
we go see my parents in May,

00:19:50.310 --> 00:19:51.143
beginning of May, right.

00:19:51.143 --> 00:19:52.700
Can we go see my parents
in the beginning of the,

00:19:52.700 --> 00:19:53.990
in beginning of May?

00:19:53.990 --> 00:19:58.183
And I might say, May's not
a good time, sweetheart.

00:19:59.410 --> 00:20:00.243
May's not a good time.

00:20:00.243 --> 00:20:01.850
And that might be because I've got

00:20:01.850 --> 00:20:02.960
a lot of stuff on at work

00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:04.713
or maybe the finances are
not great to support that.

00:20:04.713 --> 00:20:06.887
I mean, there's a hundred reasons, right.

00:20:06.887 --> 00:20:07.720
- Yes.

00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:08.553
- But in her mind, she might go,

00:20:08.553 --> 00:20:10.130
she might say something like,

00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:12.000
you just don't like my parents.

00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.490
- Mm.

00:20:13.490 --> 00:20:16.530
- That's a negative
interpretation of the situation.

00:20:16.530 --> 00:20:17.590
- Yes.

00:20:17.590 --> 00:20:20.080
- Now, if she goes, you just
don't like my interpretation,

00:20:20.080 --> 00:20:20.913
well, what is that?

00:20:20.913 --> 00:20:21.900
That's an escalation, right.

00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:22.910
That's now gonna escalate.

00:20:22.910 --> 00:20:24.790
And I go, that's just simply not true.

00:20:24.790 --> 00:20:26.590
I think your parents are great.

00:20:26.590 --> 00:20:30.900
And she'll say, well, then why
did this happen at Christmas?

00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:32.970
And it's like, okay, so
negative interpretation

00:20:32.970 --> 00:20:35.290
is now very quickly rolled
over into escalation

00:20:35.290 --> 00:20:36.930
and now we're off to the races

00:20:36.930 --> 00:20:39.723
and before you know it, we're
gonna fight for three weeks.

00:20:40.790 --> 00:20:45.790
So that's the second
really negative habit,

00:20:46.053 --> 00:20:46.886
negative behavior.

00:20:46.886 --> 00:20:48.150
It's like, you've gotta look for the best.

00:20:48.150 --> 00:20:49.030
This is your soulmate.

00:20:49.030 --> 00:20:52.190
This is the person that
you've invited into your life

00:20:52.190 --> 00:20:54.190
to spend the rest of the
life, rest of your life with.

00:20:54.190 --> 00:20:56.060
This is the father or the
mother of your children.

00:20:56.060 --> 00:20:57.470
This is the person that--
- Yeah.

00:20:57.470 --> 00:21:00.650
- That you are gonna go through
everything in life with.

00:21:00.650 --> 00:21:02.070
And we've gotta get in the habit of

00:21:02.070 --> 00:21:04.550
thinking the best of that person.

00:21:04.550 --> 00:21:05.910
We've gotta get in the habit of thinking

00:21:05.910 --> 00:21:06.930
well of that person.

00:21:06.930 --> 00:21:09.850
And again, I asked the
question to make this point

00:21:09.850 --> 00:21:12.070
when I'm working with couples, did it,

00:21:12.070 --> 00:21:13.770
I said, do either of
you, have either of you

00:21:13.770 --> 00:21:16.290
ever woken up in the morning and gone,

00:21:16.290 --> 00:21:18.790
I'm just gonna hurt my
partner's feelings today.

00:21:18.790 --> 00:21:19.770
- Mm.

00:21:19.770 --> 00:21:21.500
- Have any, have either of you woken,

00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:23.350
ever woken up and gone,

00:21:23.350 --> 00:21:27.560
I'm gonna be a real what today
and cause a lot of problems

00:21:27.560 --> 00:21:29.360
in this relationship today.

00:21:29.360 --> 00:21:31.360
And never has anybody said yes.

00:21:31.360 --> 00:21:32.380
And then I asked them individually.

00:21:32.380 --> 00:21:33.780
I said, do you believe that your partner

00:21:33.780 --> 00:21:36.890
has ever woken up in the
morning and said to themselves,

00:21:36.890 --> 00:21:39.440
I'm gonna cause problems
in this relationship today,

00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.160
I'm gonna cause, and of
course the answer's no.

00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.890
So I'm like, from that foundation there

00:21:44.890 --> 00:21:47.340
where this person has never done that

00:21:47.340 --> 00:21:49.740
or is never gonna do that, any problem

00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:52.520
is simply coming out of a
negative interpretation.

00:21:52.520 --> 00:21:54.070
- Okay.

00:21:54.070 --> 00:21:56.240
- You're negatively
interpreting what's going on.

00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.870
So any time you feel attacked,
any time you feel provoked,

00:21:59.870 --> 00:22:02.493
any time you feel the
need to respond hostilely

00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:06.860
or aggressively, stop and ask yourself,

00:22:06.860 --> 00:22:09.100
am I interpreting this
situation negatively,

00:22:09.100 --> 00:22:10.750
and what can I do to flip that around?

00:22:10.750 --> 00:22:13.440
How can I turn this into
a positive interpretation

00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.790
and deescalate?

00:22:16.249 --> 00:22:17.082
- This is excellent.

00:22:17.082 --> 00:22:18.550
- So now, if we're flipping this around

00:22:18.550 --> 00:22:21.720
and we're going, I'm now in the habit

00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:23.570
of positive interpretation,

00:22:23.570 --> 00:22:25.784
I'm in the habit of thinking
the best of my partner

00:22:25.784 --> 00:22:28.180
and I'm in the habit of deescalation,

00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:31.560
99% of the problems are now
gone out of the relationship.

00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:32.520
- Hmm.

00:22:32.520 --> 00:22:34.210
- 99% of the problems are gone.

00:22:34.210 --> 00:22:38.420
It's, we can get to the point
again of the base foundation

00:22:38.420 --> 00:22:43.360
saying, okay, well, if we
do interpret negatively

00:22:43.360 --> 00:22:45.487
and we do escalate, well,
can we then go back to

00:22:45.487 --> 00:22:47.300
if I've hurt you, I'm sorry,

00:22:47.300 --> 00:22:48.890
if you've hurt me, you're forgiven.

00:22:48.890 --> 00:22:51.381
And can we just pull this
back very, very quickly.

00:22:51.381 --> 00:22:53.010
- Yes.

00:22:53.010 --> 00:22:54.849
- So that's the second one.

00:22:54.849 --> 00:22:58.510
The third catastrophic, catastrophic.

00:22:58.510 --> 00:22:59.343
Can't talk.

00:22:59.343 --> 00:23:02.200
Catastrophic habit is invalidation.

00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:03.520
- Mm.

00:23:03.520 --> 00:23:05.500
- It's invalidation.

00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:07.470
It's invalidating our partner's needs,

00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:11.333
invalidating our partner's opinions.

00:23:11.333 --> 00:23:14.220
And this is very insidious and,

00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:15.800
very insidious and it's very difficult

00:23:15.800 --> 00:23:17.610
because we don't know we're
doing it a lot of times.

00:23:17.610 --> 00:23:22.060
You, I can say, Mike, you
hurt my feelings and you go,

00:23:22.060 --> 00:23:23.630
well, no, I didn't, Cody.

00:23:23.630 --> 00:23:25.550
It's like, that's just
invalidated my feelings, right.

00:23:25.550 --> 00:23:27.510
It's like, whether you
hurt my feelings or not

00:23:27.510 --> 00:23:29.000
is completely irrelevant.

00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:30.040
- Yes.

00:23:30.040 --> 00:23:32.420
- If I feel that my
feelings have been hurt,

00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:33.770
to say that they weren't hurt

00:23:33.770 --> 00:23:35.683
is an invalidation of those feelings.

00:23:36.710 --> 00:23:39.660
And it's very insidious,
particularly for women.

00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:41.800
Women find that much
more offensive than men

00:23:41.800 --> 00:23:45.300
and a man will invalidate
a woman's feelings

00:23:45.300 --> 00:23:47.430
much more than the other way around.

00:23:47.430 --> 00:23:48.700
A woman will say, because a woman's

00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:49.920
much more touchy-feely, right.

00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:51.640
A woman's operating more on,

00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:54.400
a woman's very emotionally based.

00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.190
A man is very logically based.

00:23:56.190 --> 00:23:57.290
- Yes.

00:23:57.290 --> 00:23:59.220
- A man will make decisions
based on statistics,

00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:00.990
numbers, facts, and figures.

00:24:00.990 --> 00:24:04.060
A woman will make a decision
based on how she feels.

00:24:04.060 --> 00:24:05.363
- Mm-hmm.

00:24:06.520 --> 00:24:09.430
- And in her emotional
state, if a woman says,

00:24:09.430 --> 00:24:13.040
that hurt my feelings or
something along those lines,

00:24:13.040 --> 00:24:14.220
that's her emotional response.

00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:17.780
But a man will immediately
go to the logic and say

00:24:17.780 --> 00:24:19.870
facts, figure stats and statistics,

00:24:19.870 --> 00:24:20.703
no, I didn't.

00:24:22.350 --> 00:24:24.840
So now we've got an invalidation
situation and of course,

00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:27.640
this is where the, all
of these start to roll

00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:28.700
into each other again

00:24:28.700 --> 00:24:32.270
and now we're having
negative interpretations,

00:24:32.270 --> 00:24:34.070
now we're having escalations and

00:24:34.070 --> 00:24:36.740
we're sleeping in different
rooms for a few nights.

00:24:36.740 --> 00:24:39.163
- Can I take a time
out and just point out,

00:24:39.163 --> 00:24:41.430
this is a classic example.

00:24:41.430 --> 00:24:45.733
I asked you to begin describing
the framework you use.

00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:48.910
That's a very logical question.

00:24:48.910 --> 00:24:51.668
I'm looking for, walk me through--

00:24:51.668 --> 00:24:52.660
- Yes.

00:24:52.660 --> 00:24:54.590
- As an analytical person, the framework.

00:24:54.590 --> 00:24:56.090
But it could very well have been,

00:24:56.090 --> 00:24:58.760
I would've been asking the
question less about the framework

00:24:58.760 --> 00:25:01.860
and more about the emotional side,

00:25:01.860 --> 00:25:06.119
the feeling side of relationship building.

00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.270
So this is, I had to laugh at myself.

00:25:08.270 --> 00:25:11.602
I'm sitting here taking
notes about your framework,

00:25:11.602 --> 00:25:15.803
just modeling what you
just said in real time.

00:25:15.803 --> 00:25:17.047
(laughing)

00:25:17.047 --> 00:25:19.383
You've shared escalation and deescalation,

00:25:20.430 --> 00:25:24.783
the negative interpretation
versus positive.

00:25:26.530 --> 00:25:30.660
To go from invalidation to validation.

00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:33.503
What is that fourth step of
the framework that you use?

00:25:34.580 --> 00:25:38.790
- So the the fourth problematic
behavior is withdrawal.

00:25:38.790 --> 00:25:40.240
- Okay.

00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:41.910
- So when we look at the problem there.

00:25:41.910 --> 00:25:43.840
So withdrawal can be a good thing.

00:25:43.840 --> 00:25:46.050
So, I encourage people to have set plays.

00:25:46.050 --> 00:25:51.050
So the best way to
recover from an argument

00:25:51.460 --> 00:25:53.170
is to not have it in the first place.

00:25:53.170 --> 00:25:55.290
So, with my wife, for example,

00:25:55.290 --> 00:25:57.470
and you have to do this
ahead of time, right,

00:25:57.470 --> 00:25:58.810
you have to do this ahead of time.

00:25:58.810 --> 00:26:01.930
She knows that when things
get really heated between us

00:26:01.930 --> 00:26:04.240
or things are getting heated between us

00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.510
and my intelligence is going
down, so there's a direct,

00:26:08.510 --> 00:26:13.060
intelligence and emotion
are evenly proportional.

00:26:13.060 --> 00:26:14.500
So the higher the level of emotion,

00:26:14.500 --> 00:26:16.249
the lower level of intelligence.

00:26:16.249 --> 00:26:17.082
- Mm.

00:26:17.082 --> 00:26:18.370
- That's why when we have a massive fight,

00:26:18.370 --> 00:26:20.030
the next day we go, what was I thinking,

00:26:20.030 --> 00:26:20.870
why did I say that?

00:26:20.870 --> 00:26:22.270
Well, the answer was you weren't thinking

00:26:22.270 --> 00:26:24.570
because the emotional levels were so high,

00:26:24.570 --> 00:26:26.260
the intelligence levels had dropped down

00:26:26.260 --> 00:26:29.110
to little better than my five year old's.

00:26:29.110 --> 00:26:31.660
And now we have no emotional
intelligence whatsoever.

00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:35.560
So, you have to understand
that when emotion goes up,

00:26:35.560 --> 00:26:37.490
intelligence goes down and
you've gotta understand

00:26:37.490 --> 00:26:40.210
when you're not fit to
be on the battlefield.

00:26:40.210 --> 00:26:45.210
So, my wife knows that I will walk out,

00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:47.970
I'll walk out the door, but
I tell her ahead of time.

00:26:47.970 --> 00:26:50.000
I say, when I walk out, I'm coming,

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.060
I'm not walking out, I'm coming back.

00:26:52.060 --> 00:26:52.893
- Yes.

00:26:52.893 --> 00:26:54.170
- I'm protecting the relationship
because it's gonna be

00:26:54.170 --> 00:26:56.530
a lot easier for me to explain in an hour

00:26:56.530 --> 00:26:58.180
why I walked out than it is to explain

00:26:58.180 --> 00:26:59.520
what I'm about to say.

00:26:59.520 --> 00:27:00.868
- I see.

00:27:00.868 --> 00:27:02.190
- So that's very positive withdrawal.

00:27:02.190 --> 00:27:03.750
So it's having those set plays to where

00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:07.410
once you recognize that,
it's emotional intelligence.

00:27:07.410 --> 00:27:09.000
It's about being an adult, right.

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.341
It's having the emotional
intelligence to know

00:27:11.341 --> 00:27:16.341
when we're gonna snap and when
we're no longer in control.

00:27:16.930 --> 00:27:18.930
Now, I would love to say I'm the Buddha.

00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:23.570
I would love to say, I'm, you
know, the Tao of marriage,

00:27:23.570 --> 00:27:25.687
but I'm like everybody
else and I'm a human being

00:27:25.687 --> 00:27:28.070
and my wife can wind me
up, my kids can wind me up.

00:27:28.070 --> 00:27:30.810
I can get tired, I can get
hungry just like everybody else.

00:27:30.810 --> 00:27:34.668
So, having those step plays to where,

00:27:34.668 --> 00:27:37.590
you know, you're able
to recognize emotionally

00:27:37.590 --> 00:27:39.050
that I'm about to lose control

00:27:39.050 --> 00:27:40.960
and this is about to get nasty.

00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:43.100
Have that set play to walk out.

00:27:43.100 --> 00:27:44.208
- Yes.

00:27:44.208 --> 00:27:45.260
- Have that set play to leave, or have

00:27:45.260 --> 00:27:48.960
a pre-arranged understanding
with your partner to say,

00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:51.460
okay, when one or both
of us are about to become

00:27:51.460 --> 00:27:53.960
emotionally unintelligent,
here's the set play.

00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:55.210
Because at the end of the day, Mike,

00:27:55.210 --> 00:27:56.913
it's set plays that win games.

00:27:58.370 --> 00:28:00.160
We don't want to be
getting into a situation

00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.306
where we're highly emotionally charged,

00:28:03.306 --> 00:28:05.730
very unintelligent emotionally,

00:28:05.730 --> 00:28:09.710
and then having the freedom to
speak whatever we wanna speak

00:28:09.710 --> 00:28:10.950
to the person we love the most.

00:28:10.950 --> 00:28:12.500
It's just not a good situation.

00:28:13.428 --> 00:28:14.770
So having--

00:28:14.770 --> 00:28:15.980
- I love that.

00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:19.220
Set plays that wins the games.

00:28:19.220 --> 00:28:23.440
And that is, the plays are set
in advance and you basically,

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:24.890
if I understand correctly in the scenario

00:28:24.890 --> 00:28:28.720
you just described, is
that you and your wife

00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:32.680
have established that
you know that you might

00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:35.180
escalate things quickly and therefore,

00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:37.190
you have found that sometimes,

00:28:37.190 --> 00:28:38.620
let me just take a time out

00:28:39.650 --> 00:28:41.870
and then come back and redress that.

00:28:41.870 --> 00:28:43.900
That in of itself is a set play.

00:28:43.900 --> 00:28:45.170
Am I hearing that correctly?

00:28:45.170 --> 00:28:46.410
- That's a set play. Absolutely.

00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:49.100
That's, we know when we get to the point

00:28:49.100 --> 00:28:53.130
where escalation is inevitable,
when one or both of us

00:28:53.130 --> 00:28:55.790
has lost emotional control of ourselves,

00:28:55.790 --> 00:29:00.110
when that point arrives,
I need to recognize that.

00:29:00.110 --> 00:29:01.160
There are physical symptoms.

00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:02.480
My face starts to get red.

00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.310
The anger starts to well up inside of me.

00:29:04.310 --> 00:29:06.700
I start to, we all know what it's like.

00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:09.670
When I feel the demon
coming up, it's like,

00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:11.550
that's when I've gotta say something like,

00:29:11.550 --> 00:29:13.310
you know, the set play has
gotta be triggered by like,

00:29:13.310 --> 00:29:14.190
this is bananas.

00:29:14.190 --> 00:29:16.870
If I say this is bananas,
my wife needs to know

00:29:16.870 --> 00:29:19.520
that she does not need to
be between me and the door.

00:29:20.510 --> 00:29:22.880
She knows that regardless
of how hard it might be

00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:25.750
to let me leave at that point,
that's what she's gonna do

00:29:25.750 --> 00:29:29.930
because we've talked
about this and she knows

00:29:29.930 --> 00:29:32.367
that I'm leaving because I'm
protecting the relationship

00:29:32.367 --> 00:29:33.200
and I love her.

00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.100
I'm not leaving because I'm
walking out on the relationship

00:29:35.100 --> 00:29:36.300
and I don't love her.

00:29:36.300 --> 00:29:37.270
Now, you gotta be careful here,

00:29:37.270 --> 00:29:39.900
because if you just do
this, if you just walk out

00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:43.400
in the heat of an argument,
that can be, that's abandonment.

00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:44.430
- Ah.

00:29:44.430 --> 00:29:48.377
- And that's not creating
a safe, loving environment

00:29:48.377 --> 00:29:51.210
to protect the other person.

00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:53.680
That's just abandoning
them at a very bad time.

00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:55.320
This is why this has to be a set play.

00:29:55.320 --> 00:29:58.667
It can't just be done in
the moment and having a word

00:29:58.667 --> 00:30:02.100
"like this is bananas" or
"peanut butter crackers"

00:30:02.100 --> 00:30:03.650
or something like that, whatever it is

00:30:03.650 --> 00:30:05.550
that when you say that, it's like, right,

00:30:05.550 --> 00:30:07.990
we're gonna time out and we're
gonna reconvene in an hour

00:30:07.990 --> 00:30:11.133
or whenever I feel like this is gonna be,

00:30:11.133 --> 00:30:13.700
my emotional levels are gonna drop,

00:30:13.700 --> 00:30:14.790
then we're gonna be
able to talk about this

00:30:14.790 --> 00:30:15.983
at a reasonable level.

00:30:17.203 --> 00:30:21.473
- Cody, this is fascinating
in so many different levels.

00:30:22.350 --> 00:30:26.420
We've talked thus far about the
criticality of both partners

00:30:26.420 --> 00:30:30.690
coming together to
acknowledge there's an issue

00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:35.690
and to express a willingness
to work on the issue.

00:30:35.820 --> 00:30:38.530
And you've kind of walked
us through the framework

00:30:38.530 --> 00:30:42.229
you use to help couples.

00:30:42.229 --> 00:30:47.156
Can a relationship be fixed
if one of the partners

00:30:47.156 --> 00:30:49.163
has already kind of checked out?

00:30:50.490 --> 00:30:51.518
- It sure can.

00:30:51.518 --> 00:30:54.210
I mean, at the end of the
day, it's like, we can't,

00:30:54.210 --> 00:30:56.750
you know, we're not doing
voodoo witch doctor stuff here.

00:30:56.750 --> 00:30:58.730
We're not casting spells
on the other person.

00:30:58.730 --> 00:30:59.890
If the other person's checked out

00:30:59.890 --> 00:31:02.230
and they're just hell-bent
on not coming back,

00:31:02.230 --> 00:31:03.960
there's not much you can do about that.

00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.900
But there's certainly a lot
you can do as an individual

00:31:07.900 --> 00:31:10.390
where, if your partner
is just at the point

00:31:10.390 --> 00:31:13.450
where they're like, I've
heard this one time too many,

00:31:13.450 --> 00:31:15.430
I've heard you say you're
gonna change too many times,

00:31:15.430 --> 00:31:18.580
I've dealt with this too many
times, this is just too much,

00:31:18.580 --> 00:31:20.710
and they've checked
out of the relationship

00:31:20.710 --> 00:31:23.432
in that respect, then absolutely,

00:31:23.432 --> 00:31:26.190
there's a lot you can do as an individual

00:31:26.190 --> 00:31:29.840
in terms of working on
yourself that can once again

00:31:29.840 --> 00:31:32.430
make you attractive in that
relationship situation.

00:31:32.430 --> 00:31:33.540
Because at the end of the day,

00:31:33.540 --> 00:31:35.470
you've got to be attractive
to the other person.

00:31:35.470 --> 00:31:38.820
And if the other person is
checked out of the relationship,

00:31:38.820 --> 00:31:39.653
well, guess what?

00:31:39.653 --> 00:31:42.130
It's because you've become
unattractive to them.

00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:45.050
You've changed your behavior in a way,

00:31:45.050 --> 00:31:47.910
away from what was attractive
to them in the first place.

00:31:47.910 --> 00:31:49.890
And by becoming attractive,

00:31:49.890 --> 00:31:52.270
by becoming an attractive person,

00:31:52.270 --> 00:31:55.470
then that is gonna give you
your best and only chance

00:31:55.470 --> 00:31:56.303
at bringing them back.

00:31:56.303 --> 00:31:57.136
If you're an attractive person

00:31:57.136 --> 00:32:00.790
and they're not attracted
to you, then move on, right.

00:32:00.790 --> 00:32:03.710
And I always tell
people, women especially,

00:32:03.710 --> 00:32:05.260
become the best version of yourself.

00:32:05.260 --> 00:32:07.900
If you become the best version of yourself

00:32:07.900 --> 00:32:11.720
and your partner can't love
the best version of you,

00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:13.240
then they can't love you.

00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:14.243
- Yes.

00:32:14.243 --> 00:32:16.040
- Because there's nothing more
than the best version of you.

00:32:16.040 --> 00:32:19.430
So the focus really is, don't
worry about that person.

00:32:19.430 --> 00:32:21.650
They're dealing with their own
challenges in life right now.

00:32:21.650 --> 00:32:23.280
Let them deal with their
own challenges in life

00:32:23.280 --> 00:32:25.290
and we'll be there for them
whenever they ask for help.

00:32:25.290 --> 00:32:26.970
But until they ask for
help, they're gonna have to,

00:32:26.970 --> 00:32:28.810
they're gonna have to
walk this path alone.

00:32:28.810 --> 00:32:32.320
But in the meantime, become
the best version of yourself.

00:32:32.320 --> 00:32:36.230
Because when you do that,
A, you're gonna give,

00:32:36.230 --> 00:32:38.050
if they can't love the
best version of you,

00:32:38.050 --> 00:32:38.883
they can't love you.

00:32:38.883 --> 00:32:41.290
And if the worst case happens
where you have to leave

00:32:41.290 --> 00:32:44.100
this relationship, you're
going back into the world

00:32:44.100 --> 00:32:46.030
the best possible version of yourself

00:32:46.030 --> 00:32:47.230
to where you've got the best chance

00:32:47.230 --> 00:32:49.633
of living a happy life, basically.

00:32:51.100 --> 00:32:54.300
- I think that perfectly
illustrates how your work

00:32:54.300 --> 00:32:58.287
with individuals plays
into working with couples.

00:32:58.287 --> 00:33:01.550
And that is, if in your
work with individuals

00:33:01.550 --> 00:33:05.630
you help them become the
best version of themselves,

00:33:05.630 --> 00:33:08.770
it increases the likelihood
that the relationship

00:33:08.770 --> 00:33:12.440
can be improved upon.

00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:16.869
You know, Cody, I think
the theme of our podcast

00:33:16.869 --> 00:33:18.900
is Get Unstuck and On Target.

00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:22.180
In many respects, the
question I ask of all guests,

00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:25.367
you've asked, you've already
answered time and time again.

00:33:25.367 --> 00:33:28.014
But you may have another example where--

00:33:28.014 --> 00:33:28.950
- Yeah--

00:33:28.950 --> 00:33:30.130
- Either you or a client got stuck.

00:33:30.130 --> 00:33:33.850
And could you just share, what
did it take to get unstuck?

00:33:33.850 --> 00:33:35.350
- Yeah, that's a great question.

00:33:35.350 --> 00:33:38.860
And look, I wouldn't call
myself a marriage master,

00:33:38.860 --> 00:33:41.630
but for the point of the, for
the point of this example,

00:33:41.630 --> 00:33:45.300
it's like, I've gone from
complete marriage disaster

00:33:45.300 --> 00:33:46.390
to marriage master.

00:33:46.390 --> 00:33:49.220
The reason that I've become
successful at relationships

00:33:49.220 --> 00:33:51.010
is because I was really
bad at relationships.

00:33:51.010 --> 00:33:53.060
And as I said at the beginning,

00:33:53.060 --> 00:33:54.300
only two things motivate you:

00:33:54.300 --> 00:33:55.900
pursuit of pleasure, avoidance of pain,

00:33:55.900 --> 00:33:58.810
and I was in a lot of pain. I
was really in a lot of pain.

00:33:58.810 --> 00:34:03.810
So I was pursuing how to have
successful relationships.

00:34:03.860 --> 00:34:07.860
And my wife and I, when we first married,

00:34:07.860 --> 00:34:09.490
the first three or four years was really,

00:34:09.490 --> 00:34:11.770
really, really challenging.

00:34:11.770 --> 00:34:14.810
And I brought a lot of
issues to that relationship.

00:34:14.810 --> 00:34:17.943
I brought alcohol issues,
I brought drug issues.

00:34:17.943 --> 00:34:21.046
I, it's a long story, but
I won't go into it all now

00:34:21.046 --> 00:34:23.920
for the sake of time, but
I came to that marriage,

00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:24.910
by the time we got married,

00:34:24.910 --> 00:34:26.800
I was not in very good condition.

00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:27.828
- Yes.

00:34:27.828 --> 00:34:28.661
- And I wasn't a very good husband.

00:34:28.661 --> 00:34:31.050
And the only reason we made it was because

00:34:31.050 --> 00:34:31.883
she stayed with me.

00:34:31.883 --> 00:34:33.370
For the first three or four years,

00:34:33.370 --> 00:34:35.360
she really lived up to her commitment

00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:37.790
for better or for worse,
and it was for worse for her

00:34:37.790 --> 00:34:39.180
for those years.

00:34:39.180 --> 00:34:42.309
And I went to a few different counselors

00:34:42.309 --> 00:34:46.490
just to appease her,
and I just played games

00:34:46.490 --> 00:34:47.323
with them, basically.

00:34:47.323 --> 00:34:48.810
I just went there to buy myself some time.

00:34:48.810 --> 00:34:53.007
But finally, I went to a counselor for a,

00:34:53.007 --> 00:34:56.670
I went to a new counselor and we sat there

00:34:56.670 --> 00:34:58.290
for about 10 minutes and he goes,

00:34:58.290 --> 00:34:59.440
I'm just gonna stop you, Cody.

00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:02.670
He goes, there's no hope
for this relationship.

00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:03.503
There's just no hope.

00:35:03.503 --> 00:35:04.760
He goes, I'm not gonna waste your time,

00:35:04.760 --> 00:35:05.730
I'm not gonna take your money.

00:35:05.730 --> 00:35:08.190
There's just, there's no hope for you.

00:35:08.190 --> 00:35:09.023
- Hmm.

00:35:09.023 --> 00:35:12.290
- And I was like, what? What?

00:35:12.290 --> 00:35:13.580
And he goes, there's
just, there's no hope.

00:35:13.580 --> 00:35:14.720
Look at you.

00:35:14.720 --> 00:35:16.350
He's like, you know what, he goes,

00:35:16.350 --> 00:35:18.245
what's causing the problems
in the relationship?

00:35:18.245 --> 00:35:19.580
I'm like, oh, the drinking and the drugs.

00:35:19.580 --> 00:35:21.130
And he's like, how long
have you known that for?

00:35:21.130 --> 00:35:22.940
I'm like, oh, for four years.

00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:25.920
And you've had four years
and you haven't stopped?

00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:27.590
You've known that's the
problem for four years

00:35:27.590 --> 00:35:28.423
and you haven't stopped?

00:35:28.423 --> 00:35:29.550
I'm like, yeah.

00:35:29.550 --> 00:35:30.960
He goes, okay, all right.

00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:32.880
And he goes, what else?

00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:34.380
What else have you done
in the last four years

00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:36.483
to fix this problem, Cody?

00:35:36.483 --> 00:35:37.316
And I go, ah.

00:35:37.316 --> 00:35:38.960
He goes, yeah, four years of you knowing

00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:41.679
what the problem is, four
years of you knowing,

00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:44.800
and you've done absolutely
nothing to fix it.

00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.003
He goes, you show me the hope.

00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:50.510
You show me where the hope is.

00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:51.890
And I was like, man.

00:35:51.890 --> 00:35:54.870
I was like, no, there
is hope, there is hope.

00:35:54.870 --> 00:35:56.863
But to cut the long story
short, what changed there was

00:35:56.863 --> 00:35:58.760
that he gave me the gift of losing her.

00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:00.400
For the first time in my life,

00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.520
I actually, losing her was real.

00:36:03.520 --> 00:36:05.210
I didn't think she'd leave,
I didn't think she'd leave.

00:36:05.210 --> 00:36:06.760
I thought I'd just play
games with this guy,

00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:08.340
I thought she'd put up with me.

00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:10.140
And for the first time in my life,

00:36:10.140 --> 00:36:14.410
he put it in such a brutal,
there's no hope for you

00:36:14.410 --> 00:36:15.580
and I'm not gonna waste your time

00:36:15.580 --> 00:36:16.670
and I'm not gonna take your money

00:36:16.670 --> 00:36:18.170
because there's no hope for this marriage.

00:36:18.170 --> 00:36:19.980
Let this girl go and live a good life.

00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:22.210
Stop being a dick and let
this girl live a good life.

00:36:22.210 --> 00:36:24.642
It's like, whoa.

00:36:24.642 --> 00:36:25.475
(laughing)

00:36:25.475 --> 00:36:27.080
I'm like, no. It snapped me out of it.

00:36:27.080 --> 00:36:29.670
It's like, he gave me
the gift of losing her

00:36:29.670 --> 00:36:32.840
without actually losing her,
and that's what got me unstuck.

00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:34.780
The thought of losing
her became more painful

00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:36.550
than the thought of getting off the drugs,

00:36:36.550 --> 00:36:38.020
getting off the alcohol,

00:36:38.020 --> 00:36:40.350
changing my ways and
modifying my behavior.

00:36:40.350 --> 00:36:44.170
That, just being able to see losing her

00:36:44.170 --> 00:36:45.780
was more painful than all of that stuff.

00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:49.280
So he gave me that gift and
that's what got me unstuck.

00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.710
- Cody, I really appreciate your openness

00:36:52.710 --> 00:36:55.470
on that very question.

00:36:55.470 --> 00:36:58.127
And the beauty of the phrase

00:36:58.127 --> 00:37:01.200
"he gave me the gift of losing her"

00:37:01.200 --> 00:37:04.846
is that he was able to
maybe for the first time,

00:37:04.846 --> 00:37:09.540
make it clear to you how
important that relationship is.

00:37:09.540 --> 00:37:11.019
And that that was what,

00:37:11.019 --> 00:37:15.147
that was a turning point
for your relationship.

00:37:15.147 --> 00:37:18.280
That's a very powerful,
thank you for sharing that.

00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:21.300
- He made me choose between
the life I was living and her.

00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:22.410
- Mm.

00:37:22.410 --> 00:37:25.160
- He made me make a choice and I'd never,

00:37:25.160 --> 00:37:27.600
up until that point, I was
living under the delusion

00:37:27.600 --> 00:37:28.500
that I could have both.

00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:33.500
I could have the, my
ways, which were not good,

00:37:33.850 --> 00:37:35.070
and I could have her as well.

00:37:35.070 --> 00:37:37.280
And he made me, he brought it to a point

00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.400
in such a skillful way, that
he made me make that choice.

00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:41.910
You can have this or you can have her,

00:37:41.910 --> 00:37:43.410
but you can't have both, Cody.

00:37:45.670 --> 00:37:49.960
- Cody, as you kind of
reflect on our conversation,

00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:53.533
what do you hope are
takeaways for our listeners?

00:37:55.100 --> 00:37:56.760
- That there is hope.

00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:59.550
That that's the main
thing, that there is hope.

00:37:59.550 --> 00:38:03.053
Regardless of what situation
that you're in right now,

00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:04.960
that there is hope.

00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:08.240
You can redeem the situation,
particularly if both of you

00:38:08.240 --> 00:38:09.870
love each other and if
you wanna make this work,

00:38:09.870 --> 00:38:13.330
you just don't know how,
you're in a good place.

00:38:13.330 --> 00:38:15.560
That's all that it requires initially,

00:38:15.560 --> 00:38:17.280
is you both have to wanna make it work

00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:18.180
and you both love each other.

00:38:18.180 --> 00:38:20.290
If that is present, do not give up,

00:38:20.290 --> 00:38:21.930
do not give up on this relationship.

00:38:21.930 --> 00:38:23.760
Do not give up on the marriage because

00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:26.049
I can absolutely 100% assure you

00:38:26.049 --> 00:38:28.050
that you can make this work.

00:38:28.050 --> 00:38:29.430
And not only can you make it work,

00:38:29.430 --> 00:38:32.760
you can bring it to a place
of passion, joy, happiness,

00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:34.200
a place where you want to hang out

00:38:34.200 --> 00:38:37.420
and something that you
can be really proud of

00:38:37.420 --> 00:38:39.070
and you can actually help
other people as well,

00:38:39.070 --> 00:38:40.130
moving forward.

00:38:40.130 --> 00:38:43.870
So never give up is the advice
that I would give people

00:38:43.870 --> 00:38:46.583
that are in a situation that's
less than ideal right now.

00:38:47.786 --> 00:38:51.950
- So, beautifully said.

00:38:51.950 --> 00:38:55.470
Cody, I'm confident that
the people who are listening

00:38:55.470 --> 00:38:56.640
would want to learn more.

00:38:56.640 --> 00:38:59.803
What's the best way for them
to connect with you online?

00:39:00.770 --> 00:39:05.100
- So, we offer a five-day
Reboot Your Marriage Challenge,

00:39:05.100 --> 00:39:07.110
where you can spend five days with us

00:39:07.110 --> 00:39:10.671
where we're just gonna go into
this in a lot more detail.

00:39:10.671 --> 00:39:11.830
Completely free.

00:39:11.830 --> 00:39:13.610
There's no fees involved at all.

00:39:13.610 --> 00:39:16.698
So we're just, it's five
days where we go into this.

00:39:16.698 --> 00:39:20.429
BetterMarriage.com.au is
another place or CodyButler.com.

00:39:20.429 --> 00:39:24.420
These are the three places
that you can interact with us

00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:27.270
from just curious to take
a little bit of action

00:39:27.270 --> 00:39:28.513
to take a lot of action.

00:39:29.750 --> 00:39:33.290
- We will include each of
those in the show notes

00:39:33.290 --> 00:39:35.460
so that if you want to reach out,

00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:37.860
you have an easy way to do that.

00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:42.860
I might also point out Cody
has a Facebook group entitled

00:39:43.017 --> 00:39:46.930
"Marriage Therapy" that
has over 130,000 members.

00:39:46.930 --> 00:39:50.980
So clearly, what Cody has
to share is resonating

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:53.210
with a lot of people.

00:39:53.210 --> 00:39:56.060
I am gonna take a little time
out here and just point out,

00:39:56.060 --> 00:39:59.120
this topic is not the normal topic

00:39:59.120 --> 00:40:03.290
that we would try to
address in this podcast.

00:40:03.290 --> 00:40:05.200
So I'd like to hear from our listeners.

00:40:05.200 --> 00:40:08.140
If you like what we've discussed
and you want to hear more,

00:40:08.140 --> 00:40:10.780
let me know, because this was a little bit

00:40:10.780 --> 00:40:12.450
of something new for me.

00:40:12.450 --> 00:40:15.670
But personally, this has
been very, very rewarding.

00:40:15.670 --> 00:40:19.530
I want to thank you very much for sharing.

00:40:19.530 --> 00:40:24.090
We are recording this
podcast on a Monday morning,

00:40:24.090 --> 00:40:26.060
eight o'clock in the morning for me,

00:40:26.060 --> 00:40:29.060
but a 10 o'clock at night for Cody.

00:40:29.060 --> 00:40:33.159
And for you to give up sleep
time and-or family time

00:40:33.159 --> 00:40:36.340
to be with me and to share what you shared

00:40:36.340 --> 00:40:39.340
with our listeners, I just
simply wanna say thank you.

00:40:39.340 --> 00:40:40.173
- No, thank you.

00:40:40.173 --> 00:40:42.050
I appreciate you having
me on, and hopefully,

00:40:42.050 --> 00:40:43.040
hopefully there's someone out there

00:40:43.040 --> 00:40:45.170
that will find this helpful.

00:40:45.170 --> 00:40:47.240
- I'm confident there will be.

00:40:47.240 --> 00:40:49.240
I also wanna thank our,
this, our listeners.

00:40:49.240 --> 00:40:52.170
The listeners who tune
into this, to podcasts.

00:40:52.170 --> 00:40:55.900
We upload the latest
episode to Apple, Google,

00:40:55.900 --> 00:40:58.040
and Spotify every Thursday.

00:40:58.040 --> 00:41:00.940
So if you've enjoyed
this episode with Cody,

00:41:00.940 --> 00:41:03.270
please subscribe so you can learn

00:41:03.270 --> 00:41:06.036
from other great guests like him.

00:41:06.036 --> 00:41:11.036
If you are a business and
you're growing quickly

00:41:11.750 --> 00:41:14.310
and you're worried that you
don't have the right people

00:41:14.310 --> 00:41:17.680
and processes in place to
handle that increased workload,

00:41:17.680 --> 00:41:19.360
or maybe you aren't sure that you've got

00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:22.290
the right planning
systems to assure success,

00:41:22.290 --> 00:41:25.820
if that is the case, if
that's yes, let's talk.

00:41:25.820 --> 00:41:28.860
Head to our website, bench-builders.com,

00:41:28.860 --> 00:41:30.830
to schedule a quick call.

00:41:30.830 --> 00:41:33.040
We're gonna explore ways to help you solve

00:41:33.040 --> 00:41:37.860
those nagging problems so you
can scale faster and smarter.

00:41:37.860 --> 00:41:39.620
So I wanna thank you for joining us,

00:41:39.620 --> 00:41:42.353
and I hope you have picked
up on some tips from Cody

00:41:42.353 --> 00:41:45.542
that'll help you get
unstuck and on target.

00:41:45.542 --> 00:41:46.992
Until next time.

00:41:46.992 --> 00:41:49.825
(energetic music)