Episode 51: Overcoming Leadership Sabotage with Brandon Wilson

Episode #51

Mike O'Neill: Welcome back to the Get Unstuck & On Target Podcast. I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders and we love helping leaders sleep better because they've solved their tough people problems. In this podcast, we're talking with experts to get their insights and ways to help you or your business get unstuck. Joining me today is Brandon Wilson. Brandon is the CEO of Wilbron Inc. it was founded in 2006, Wilbron started off as a higher education think tank providing communication council to more to 100 college presidents. Since Wilburn services have expanded to include public relations, brand management and creative services. Welcome Brandon. 

Brandon Wilson: Hey, thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure to be on the show. 

Mike O'Neill: What I did not say in my introduction, Brandon is that Brandon is a survivor of leadership sabotage. And it's in his new book. Sabotage Brandon shares his bout with betrayal, theft and deceit that cost him nearly $700,000 and threatened his livelihood. Goodness gracious. I know you would rather not have that experience that led to the book, but you've just published this book correct? 

Brandon Wilson: That's correct. That's correct. 

Mike O'Neill: So this is, this is fresh. And before we get to your book, can I just go back a little bit to your, to your company. You shared a little bit about the name of your company before we started recording here, Wilbron, that is a kind of a mashup of two names. Is that correct? 

Brandon Wilson: That's correct. It's a family name, Wilson and Brown family. And, you know, I never, I never thought of myself as an entrepreneur. As a matter of fact, I worked in sales early, early in my career and I wasn't very good at it at all. And, I had a chance to work as a student in student affairs, and I worked closely with, the university's president at Auburn University. The late Bill Walker and, learn a lot about leadership there learned a lot about, about execution. And from there I went on to work at a civil rights organization that does incredible work fighting against injustices and empowering others to do it. I had a chance to work really closely with the founder there. So my life has been really impacted by great mentors. And one time we were traveling and we were at Penn state and I remember in the hotel, we were just talking and he said, Brandon, you you're pretty good at what you do. You, you have an instinct about you that really helps you to pinpoint the things that leaders need. And you gotta, at a pretty young age, I was in my twenties then and he encouraged me to start my own company. And never before had I felt so flattered being fired. No, he wasn't firing me, but I did tell him is if you want to fire me to tell me to leave, you don't have to flatter me out the door. But he kept saying over and over again, you know, start something, do, do your own thing, you know? And I would just show a shrug at all, but the thing that's really changed the conversation for me was when he said that told me the story about why he founded the civil rights organization that he founded. And he said he found it in order to shape the world. And, and to create a better world for the people that he loved. And he said, Brandon, if you are not interested in being an entrepreneur, at least be interested enough in it to build something, to benefit those you love. And so I took it to heart and I immediately, the next day went online and reserved the name Wilbron, which is the Wilson and Brown portions of my, of my family, that my mom married into it. And the rest is history. 

Mike O'Neill: You have as your mission statement, your company's mission statement. Probably one of the best mission statements I read in a long time. It's two words. For good.

Brandon Wilson: That's it. 

Mike O'Neill: Powerful. 

Brandon Wilson: Thank you. Thank you. 

Mike O'Neill: How does your company operate for good for your clients? 

Brandon Wilson: For good is it informs every decision we make. We have at our company, what we call a three way test, Rotary has a four way test.

Mike O'Neill: That they do.

Brandon Wilson: I am a Rotarian, I believe in putting service above self. And we have a four way test in Rotary and at Wilbron, and we have a three-way test. And the three-way tests that our company, that informs everything that we do is one, is it good for business? What that means is it, does it promote ethical business practices, solid and sound and responsible business practices? The second is this, does it positively impact community, and you know, make making sure that it does that. And then the third is. Is does it positively impact the life the ordinary person. And if the, the answer is not yes, to all three of those questions, then we, we don't pursue the opportunity or we choose a path that allows it to be yes. And so that, that is our definition of for good. Something that is good for business. Good for community, but also good for the ordinary person. And it is, it is the way we do business and, it is, it has been a powerful rubric or compass for us and making sure that we avoid mission creep as we build this engine to shake the world for, for the better. You know, one of the most interesting things I want to share about about that is, is that it is our mission, but it also gives us a chance to challenge, those who want to work with us. You know, they may call us and say, Hey, I want you to help me sell more widgets or do ABC and D. And we always say, listen, it has to, in order for us to partner and for us to unlock the benefit of, of, of our incredible talent in our company, you know, we need to make sure that we're not just selling widgets, but we're doing it in a way that promotes ethical business in a way that makes our community or communities better. And in a way that propels ordinary people forward. And, and that's, that's always a great conversation to have with people because it changes and challenges all at the same time. And so that's our, that's our mission and that's how we utilize it every single day to shape the world that, that, as that, as we like to see it, 

Mike O'Neill: I appreciate you sharing that. You've also mentioned that you had an early mentor who kinda pushed you out of the nest a little bit that led to your entrepreneurial journey. But it sounds as if, based on your experience, you've learned some really valuable lessons along the way. And, I would introduce yourself as a survivor of leadership sabotage. So as a starting point, how do you define leadership sabotage? 

Brandon Wilson: Mike, there's an easy definition. And it's easy, but it's also elusive. You know, I am amazed at how pervasive leadership sabotage is, how few people know what it is. If you, if you were to ask 10 people this too, you know what to define what sabotage is or leadership sabotage. I'm not a betting man but I would wager to think that, that many of them will struggle to string together the words to aptly describe it. And so what it is is, is willful activity, willful activity that seeks to obstruct or disrupt someone for personal or selfish gain. And not just the people, it disrupts, processes. Is it disruptive systems? It disrupts organizational missions, all for selfish gain. And, and it looks like, you know, and we've seen it too. It looks like employee defiance. You know, I am a manager. I am charged with getting, moving the ball from A to, to Y or the A to G and all in between. I need, I need employees to sort of work with me. And then you have people who resist. You getting from A to G that's sabotage and they're all types of defiance from passive aggressive, from avoidance defiers to aggressive defier s. And we need to know how to deal with that and see defiance as an act of sabotage. A lot of people don't even see it as an act of sabotage, but they're literally trying to disrupt or obstruct progress in order to preserve something for themselves. And sometimes that's something for themselves is familiarity. The comfort they have in the mundane, the comfort they have in the mastery of the skills that they have developed to this moment. And they don't want to push and stress themselves. And you may be taking them or asking them to go somewhere that's unfamiliar to them. And so instead of me saying no, because you were my supervisor. I would just sabotage your efforts to slow down progress to frustrate the systems. There's revenge corporate revenge and just something that happens a lot and, and not just incorporations, but also revenge in, in our relationship, in our personal lives as well. Reputation assassination, credibility assassination, theft. And so we start talking about it I'm sure your listeners, all our leaders are saying, man, You know, I had something like that happen, or I know somebody who, who, who faced that, and most leaders are ill equipped with the tools needed to address those things when they, when they happen. And as a result, you just got to lean on sheer instincts to get through it. And, and if you, you know, choose wrong or you don't survive, you position those saboteurs to literally rob the world of the impact of their leadership. 

Mike O'Neill: You know, you've defined, sabotage in, in a way that we need that kind of breadth inform of a, of a definition. Why don't we start with the leaders who are listening in and right now, how do you suggest that leaders need to be, what do they need to be looking for in terms of potential signs of leadership sabotage? Could they be, how can they avoid it before it actually strikes? 

Brandon Wilson: That that's the purpose of the book, is, is, yeah, we it's important to overcome, but man and wouldn't it be great to have the tools needed to avoid it all together? And so the book Sabotage: Leadership That Overcomes Betrayal, Theft and Deceit. Provides leaders with those tools. And what I call, what, what I refer to is the signs, that's the four horsemen of sabotage. 

Mike O'Neill: Okay. 

Brandon Wilson: And these horsemen are things that everybody can recognize. Everybody can see in and around their lives. And whenever you see these signs happening, whenever you see these horsemen ride into your life, you know that sabotage is about too it's not far behind. The first horseman to look for is jealousy. That's the first one and we know what jealousy looks like, but there are levels levels to jealousy as well that my studies have taught me and that my book discloses, but on a very entry level jealousy whenever you see someone with a, with a pension for diminishing the gains of others. They don't even necessarily have to be about you, what you're experiencing, but you hear them say things like why does Sally always get that? Why are you always asking Bill to do this? What they, what they're showing you is a propensity to be jealous.

Mike O'Neill: Okay. 

Brandon Wilson: And if unchecked, it can become rooted into it to give away the activity that becomes actual action for taking things away from Sally or Bill, whether they be opportunities, whether they be whatever in order to exercise their jealousy. The other, the other horsemen is arrogance. And arrogance needs no introduction because it introduces itself. These, these, this horseman. Is fueled by a certain kind of activity or sabotaging activity. But we know the arrogant type, you know, they, are reluctant to, to new knowledge, to new training. If you, if you were at a company, they, they, why am I going through this workshop? Like, why do I need professional development? They're also, arrogant is also incredible despite what they may appear to be like, they also incredibly, they lack self-awareness. So they are in situational awareness. So they are unaware of the damage that they might be doing. So there's the saying, you know, they really just couldn't help themselves, is, is meant for the arrogant leader. I mean, they're just taken away by winning, by being on top and achieving and to getting to that destination. Despite who might be harmed along the way. The other horsemen, are the liars. Let's call it lying as the horseman. And, and there are different levels of lying. There are people who lie just to distract from self, don't look at me, you don't see me so I can continue to do what I've been doing. Then there is another level of liars. Who lie to harm others, like literally throwing people under the proverbial bus, and with a incredible disregard for the harm that they do in order to preserve whatever it is that they're trying to protect within themselves. And then the last horseman is seduction. You know, folks may think of seduction as a, as an intimate thing, but it's, but it's not, it w we're talking very platonic. They have well manicured personas. These folks have well manicured reputations, and they guard them persistently. And, they're very intentional about, they're ambitious, their ambitions and their desires and their pursuits. And we all have that, but what makes them cross over into the of seducers is that they are, they enjoy inviting you along their pursuit to do greater and bigger things. Even though some of their ways or their means might be unethical. And they really don't enjoy doing the unethical or things that skirt the lines of, of this is the right way to do it. They really enjoy getting you to come along that ride with them. That's what they really enjoy. And they don't believe that the means justify the ends. They, they, you know, whatever means necessary. We're going to get here. And boy, is it going to be fun? Come along with me. And so those are the four horseman of sabotage. And if you could recognize those horsemen, when they come into your life or your leadership journey, then you know, what activities, you need to be protecting yourself against. 

Mike O'Neill: So you shared that there are at least four signs. You characterize them as the four horsemen, jealousy, arrogance, lying, and seduction. And you're encouraging us as leaders. If you see one or more of those, then you could very well be, subject to potential sabotage. You know, in my intro, I shared what you share in more detail in your book. You, experienced the sabotage that led to significant loss. And in your book, you describe how does one survive such a sabotage. Could you just offer maybe just some, a tidbit of the kinds of things that if, if you'd miss these signs. You're saying that these things are survivable, but if you pick up on the signs, you avoid it in the first place. But if this happens, what are some survival tips that you are offering? 

Brandon Wilson: Yeah, that's a great question, Mike. And I want to ask, you want to answer with three, with three movements to this symphony, my personal story. You know, you know, we should, we should be seeking guidance from people who have been places that they either don't want you to go or that they want you to go, so they can give you advice. And, and, you know, I've helped a lot of leaders, a lot of CEOs, a lot of executives unlock mixed levels of impact and to do incredible things. And to respond to crises, but nothing taught me about the behavior of sabotage more than being one of its victims or survivors. You know, years ago, around 2013 or so, 2012. My business was doing really, really good and really well. And my wife and I, we sat down was going so well that, that we talked about our strategy for the future. We said we would have a child. We would move so we can go to, we have access to the school district that we want it for the child and build our dream home and all of these things. And I also shared with her that my plans for growth would be to buy companies. You know, we were making some money, so why don't we buy all the companies? I got a phone call from a friend of mine said, Hey, there's a guy who wants to sell his business. You know, we had a mutual friend and that mutual friend is going to put together this deal because you know, this guy is interested in selling his business. I'll put you all together and having an introduction. Puts the, puts us together. I was, I liked the business. I liked the person, but more so I like the opportunity it presented. You know, if I were to purchase that business and that, and that book of business, I mean, we would be incredibly wealthy almost instantly. I mean, it was a huge opportunity and I saw it, I saw the lights, I saw green lights before I got off the bus. Like I said, I hadn't caught a pass, but I score, I scored 21 points in that game. And so we got together and I think he saw the glitter in my eyes. He said, man, I got a sucker. And he used that to create a relationship as a mentor, mentee kind of relationship. He had done business in that, in our industry for a long time. So I was also buying history, but that mentor, mentoring relationship was uneven. And, but I thought I could endure it because you'll listen, we're going to go through the due diligence and we're going to buy the business. Well, I guess the advice of counsel, one of the things that, that I, that I did for fear of not stopping the train from moving was I established with him a third entity where we would start moving all of our assets into this third entity so that I can acquire the assets without the debt, you know, asset sale. My lawyers said, it's not uncommon, but don't do it yet. They said, don't do it yet. And I said, ah, I got to keep this train moving. I'm going to do it. So I started putting my assets into this third party, into this third company. Putting it in there, putting it in there, putting it in there. I merged my staff together while I was doing due diligence still and all at the encouragement of my saboteur. And about two years, a year and a half later, I got a call from my lawyer and said, you idiot come to my office immediately. I go meet with my attorneys and he pulls up, he says, where is your money? And pulls up the computer, checking the state registry. And that company doesn't even exist. Where is your money going? It is a tough story to tale, especially because of what happens next. My saboteur was a bully and it was driven by arrogance. Arrogance was one of those horsemen that he rode on. Now I go and confront him and say, Hey, we're going to separate this and I'm not giving any more money to this thing. And I remember he looked at me with the glare of intimidation I've never seen before. And he said, he said, you know, if you don't want to give me any more of your money, what I'm going to do is I'm going to kill your wife. 

Mike O'Neill: Wow. 

Brandon Wilson: That's what he said. And he said, and this is how I'm going to do it. He said, I'm going to call my buddies who work for the police department who worked for the DA's office. And I'm going to get all these trumped up charges against you. We'll make you spend a whole bunch of money, but I'm not interested in the money. Cause you got my money. You could pay for it is what he's said. What I'm interested in is getting a mug shot that you'll be seen as a criminal, everywhere you go, and your wife is not going to be able to survive or to knowing that she's married to a crook. That's what I'm going to. And he did it. He tried to do it. And my instincts, my resources allow me to fight back and I survived. Now $700,000 later, nearly $700,000 later. But that expense is, was, is what I charged. I charged that expense to gaining the knowledge needed to now share with other leaders so that they can avoid those signs of sabotage. The second thing I want to say in answering that question is, is that avoiding leadership sabotage is so incredibly important as a matter of wisdom. As a leadership discipline, has nothing to do with paranoia. And the reason why I challenge you to change your thinking, if you, if any audience member is thinking about it in that way is to change that thinking is because of what you are pursuing as a leader. And the more effective you become as a leader in pursuing, those things, the more consequential your leadership becomes. Literally changing the world or access to food for those who might have food insecurity, changing public transit systems, for those who might be dependent upon transit, getting more, better education to underserved communities. I mean, really consequential. And if you allow yourself to be tripped up by sabotage, and when you allow yourself to have the gifts of the benefits of your leadership taken away from those folks that you're trying to serve. And so the, to the spirit of your question, if you are ever faced with sabotage and you will be, and it's around everywhere you go, one of the most powerful things you can do is two things. One is to lead with character is a potent and powerful weapon against sabotage. And then the other is, is to have a strong and to curate and nurture a strong, positive self identity. And that'll, help you stop the self sabotage that you may be inflicting on your own self.

Mike O'Neill: Could we go down that path a little bit and that is, you want to have a positive self identity, but you just introduced the word self sabotage for the first time. For our viewers and listeners. How can we self sabotage knowingly or unknown? 

Brandon Wilson: Oh, my goodness. Listen. Some of the, some of the best thieves have our hands, you know, we steal from ourselves. And, you know, every, every one of those horsemen, if you want to find them, sometimes all you have to do is look within, look within. And you know, a study of sabotage is not a complete without turning the mirror inward. And that's my character and stuff. Identity is so important, positive self identity is so important because it allows you to really become so self-aware that you understand the things that, that may have you become jealous and it may lead you to become a liar. What are you trying to hide? What are you trying? So understanding those things will help you root out the forces. That may lead you to be a self saboteur. That may take, you know, start taking things away from yourself. I have a great story about that and I'll keep it really brief. There was a, in 2014, I had an idea of creating a company. That would allow neighborhood kids and moms to go shopping for other people and they would deliver the groceries to your door. Can you believe it? In 2014, I had that idea. I wrote a business plan. I thought it was great. I was like, man, this is amazing. Let's do this. Interviewed a consultancy, a research firm to see what people's appetite would be for such a grocery delivery service. And she said, Brandon, I have another client who who's interested in doing something similar. But I'm telling you, man, he he's been telling me all the struggles that he's having. And he said, it's tough. It's difficult. Are you sure you want to do that? And I said, ah, yeah, I do. I go home and talk to my wife about it. She said, Brandon, you got a lot of irons in the fire already. I don't know if you need to take this on as well. I go talk to our attorneys. I go talk to people. It was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I started talking to myself, Mike I said, what do I know about technology? Like, what do I know about the grocery industry. And I gave up, I gave up on it. And what drove me was this idea of creating a platform that would allow moms to shop for other moms. And across town from where I live, there was a guy named Bill Smith who was a high school dropout, family of entrepreneurs. And he started the company, same company that I ended up doing and, he built it, drew it. He saw himself as a, as a winner. As a successful businessman where I saw myself as one as being very fragile and vulnerable, and he sold that company for 700, I mean for $500,000 to Target, it's called Shipt. And you know, and many of you listening probably know that company, but what makes sort of a twist of the dagger of me stealing that opportunity for myself? Th the twist of the dagger came when I was at a meeting and the CEO, president, and CEO and chairman of Target spoke at a, at a meeting it was a private meeting. And he said, the reason he bought Shipt was because he thought it was revolutionary that someone would create a platform to allow moms to shop for other moms. 

Mike O'Neill: Yes.

Brandon Wilson: So we steal from our, we sabotage our selves as well. And so this is why, you know, the study of sabotage is so incredibly important, not just because you can navigate the world around you, but it also helps you to become in tune and navigating the opportunities for yourself. That's in front of you. 

Mike O'Neill: You know, Brandon, I think you've already alluded to this more than once, but in keeping with the theme of this podcast, can you reflect on a circumstance where perhaps you or a client got stuck and what did it take to get either yourself or this client unstuck?

Brandon Wilson: Yeah. There is, a great example of that. The story one of the most pronounced is not really, I guess it is stuck. The first was a big idea do something really world changing. And, and it was a bit out of their comfort zone, but not much, hosted some executives from Apple at my office. And I remember, while working with them, we, we helped to establish, and stand up and announce a really powerful organization. That's committed to using technology to transform the classroom and transform the way that students and all learners engage with educators. And powerful mission. We stood it up and Tim Cook was scheduled to come down and to announce the launching of this new company called The Education Farm, Education Farm. In preparation for that, these Apple executives were in town and they were buzzing about what to do next, like what's next. But we were stuck on using technology to transform the classroom. And in a meeting we had to first confront what we were stuck to. That's the first step. And so we met and said, listen, me and Tim Cook is going to be down here. We're going to talk about using technology to transform the planet. So we're stuck to that idea because it hadn't happened yet. You know, whenever it's, you know, somebody that comes out with a movie, oh, a movie comes out. If we can go to it, it's already been filmed two years earlier. Right. So we, we had already planned on Tim Cook coming down. We knew when it was going to happen and we were still stuck to that, but we had to move beyond that present. And I remember them asking, so what do we think is going to be next? And us engaged in discussion. And it was not in a disrespectful way. It was a lot of comfort in that conversation. A lot of the same. Things that we already seen, and we were already going to do in the immediate future. And I remember them looking at me, and saying, what do you think about those ideas? And I remember saying that, that, that that's not enough. It was not enough. So the second thing is, to challenge the present. So to get unstuck, to say, okay, we're stuck to this. This is where we are in the present. And then state of future and articulate a future with so much clarity and urgency because you create the urgency by communicating a future that shakes the world that we undeniably want to be a part of. And they said, well, if you don't think that that's enough, What do we need to do? And I remember stating to them that what we need to solve, the challenges that we're after is not a camp, not a coding camp or technology camp. What we need to do is to build a campus. To build an entire college campus that serves as an engine for, for developing 21st century leaders who are equipped with the technology to go out and change the world. We were immediately unstuck. And the next question was is Brandon, how do we do that? And then we led to, oh, I'll obviously my answer was, I don't know. 

Mike O'Neill: Hey I just got the idea. 

Brandon Wilson: Well, we got unstuck. And so to get unstuck, you have to first be very candid. In communicating and identifying what you're stuck to. And then identify what things are in our presence that makes us comfortable and then challenge all of those things and tie it to a vision that we undeniably want to be a part of in order to create urgency, that propel us, that move us to action.

Mike O'Neill: Brandon, I'm sure you've already used this, but as I was listening to you, tell that story about getting stuck on the notion of camp. Is that your encouragement was, is to get unstuck you had to add an. And you had to involve them. You had to basically say we, us, so you another mashup camp and us just became campus. 

Brandon Wilson: That's correct. I've never used that, but I will just like run, like, yeah. 

Mike O'Neill: All right. So it, it's yours run with that. Brandon, as you kind of think back on the things that we've covered in our time together, what do you want to be some closing thoughts or takeaways for our listeners? 

Brandon Wilson: You know, it's actually something that I, that I hadn't, that we hadn't touched on. And that is, is the acme of leadership. You know, a lot of people think about, Hey, I want to be a leader. I want to do legacy defining things I want to do all, you know. I believe the acme of leadership is unlocking the power of collective impact. In order to unlock the power of collective impact. To get others to join in your vision, to join in your pursuits, you will undoubtedly also be inviting difference of opinions. You're going to be also inviting people who view life through different lenses. You're also going to be inviting people who have different methodologies for approaching problem solving. And, but I think it's important to invite all of those differences into you in order to unlock collective impact, because together we can do incredible things. More so than we can do on our own. Well, this is why our sabotage the book is so important. Because you have to understand how to navigate in a world where people may view situations, may view the world through different lenses may bring with them different ethical compasses. You need to understand how to navigate in that world while also protecting what you're after, in order to do the transformative things. Cause we each other. To do big things. We need all of those people working collectively together in order to get after those things. And if a leader is not equipped with what they need to navigate all of those differences, then they will fail to have the equipment needed to really protect their large and transformational pursuit. And so I think that sabotage is the first early step for getting you that portion of your leadership discipline. So that you can not only know the value of working hard and being resilient and showing up on time and doing what you say, but now you will acquire the skills needed to understand how to be comfortable in disagreement. How to navigate in the midst of disagreement and how to navigate in a world where people may and very likely won't to, to deceive, betray and even steal from you in order to, to preserve their own selfish pursuits.

Mike O'Neill: Brandon, you've given us an incredible preview of your recently published book. We're going to be including links to how to get that book, and, and read in much more detail, what you've kind of shared with us, today. If folks want to reach out and connect with you online, what's the best way for them to do that?

Brandon Wilson: Yeah. Go to brandonwilson.co that's, Brandon Wilson dot co, brandonwilson.co. And you can learn about me. You can purchase the book there. You can follow all of my social media handles @brandonwilson.co, but you can also do something else Mike, I think you can also re reserve 15 minutes of time with me.

Mike O'Neill: Okay. 

Brandon Wilson: And if there are leadership challenges, questions, curiosities that your, that your listeners have. They can just go to brandonwilson.co get 15 minutes with me, share with share what those insights are, and I will unlock my nearly 20 years of executive, consultancy experience and provide it to them to help them get unstuck and to get on target.

Mike O'Neill: I appreciate that offer. We will, of course include that link in the show notes. So people know that they can access you, directly, as well. I was interested in having you as a podcast guest for several reasons. But the main reason if I might would be is that you are marrying up real-world experience to include the setbacks. And you've been able to put in language that I was able to understand how we as leaders need to be ever mindful of the role that sabotage can play, in our businesses. But also potentially in our own personal lives. And so this has been a great opportunity to, just to kind of tease what one would read, in the book. So thank you for willingness to, to be my guest. This has been a real treat. 

Brandon Wilson: No, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. 

Mike O'Neill: You know, I also want to thank our listeners for joining us for this episode of Get Unstuck & On Target. Every Thursday, we upload the latest episode to all the major platforms. So if you haven't already please subscribe. You know, life really is too short to let business problems keep you up at night. So you've been listening to my conversation with Brandon and you're realizing that something is keeping your business stuck. Let's talk. You can go to our website, bench-builders.com to schedule a quick call. So I want to thank you for joining us, and I hope you've picked up on some tips to help you Get Unstuck & On Target. Until next time.