In this episode, Dr. Steve Messineo talks in-depth about the rise and fall of his successful physical therapy and fitness center business and the things he learned along the way. Steve candidly admits where mistakes were made, but most importantly, what he learned from them. He also shared some advice on how to get unstuck when life is pulling you into different directions.
Dr. Steve Messineo is a physical therapist, business coach, and Business Development Officer for Citara Systems. He offers candid and practical advice for small business owners from someone who has built his own businesses from the ground up.
Dr. Steve Messineo’s Biography
Throughout his 18 years as owner of All-Access Physical Therapy, Dr. Steve Messineo successfully leveraged technology in numerous ways to grow business while safeguarding patient data.
From automated online marketing tools to moving from a local based to cloud server platform to improve interoffice efficiency, to researching and implementing the best firewall and anti-virus programs for their computer network, to finding the best software programs for increasing staff productivity, utilizing technology was an integral aspect of his company’s growth.
Now, he is taking the knowledge he gained in IT and putting it to work for Citara Systems, Inc and its clients. By developing IT management processes that are in line with the strategic goals of the companies and practices we serve.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn…
- You do not need to take business courses or have fancy schooling to build your own business. You just need a good step-by-step business plan and be willing to take risks.
- Business owners should admit when they need help or out of depth on something and not be afraid to hire help. This can save time, money, and offer a larger return on investment.
- Don’t let other ventures get you distracted from your goals for your business. Chasing opportunities rarely works out and causes you to lose focus on what you already have.
- Hold people who work with or for you accountable. If a business relationship is not working out, do something to change it.
- Find joy in the things you can do. Focus on yourself and the things you want in your life.
- Sometimes business owners struggle with asking for help because they don’t see the value in it. However, there is often a great return on investment for seeking help early.
- Always network and be open to other people. Listen to your colleagues and mentors, you’ll learn something.
- “I always wanted to control my own destiny.” —Steve Messineo
- “I had to learn to see things from other people’s perspectives in order to be successful” —Steve Messineo
- “When I work with business owners, it seems they think they have to do everything, and in trying to do everything they fail at some things” —Mike O’Neill
Links & Resources Mentioned…
- Steve’s LinkedIn Profile – https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemessineo/
- Steve’s Website – https://citarasystems.com/
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Mike O'Neill: Welcome back to the Get Unstuck & On Target Podcast. I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders and we're business coaches who love helping leaders sleep better because they've solved their tough planning, process, and people problems in this podcast. We're talking with thought leaders to get their insights on ways to help you or your business get unstuck. Joining me today for the Boston area is Dr. Steve Messineo. Steve is a business development officer with Citara Systems. But for 18 years prior to joining Citara, Steve was the founder and owner of all Access physical Therapy. So today we're going to discuss Steve's journey as a small business owner and the lessons that he's learned along the way. Steve. Welcome.
Steve Messineo: Thank you, Mike. Glad to be here.
Mike O'Neill: Steve, I introduced you as having a doctorate in physical therapy. And I think I know what that requires to become a physical therapist, but if you would walk us through what does one have to do to become a doctor of physical therapy?
Steve Messineo: Well, these days it's probably a little bit, different than when I went to school. It's a four year college degree followed by a, it's probably a three to four year you know, post-graduate, graduate work, in physical therapy, which will include internships and, and that type of thing and different practices. In my day, when I, when I, I actually took a different route, I went to the University of Massachusetts, got my undergrad in political science of all things. It didn't really do much with that, decided to go back to school, which I did had to take, a bunch of community college classes that were within the science field for me to be accepted into grad school that I went to. And, that, that program was a three-year program with a year long internship at, acute rehab hospital. And, that's how I got my master's now to a couple of years later, the profession, transitioned to a doctorate in PT. And I had literally, for me, I just had to go back on and take four additional classes that allowed me to have a doctorate degree. So, that's how I got most, most for most big physical therapists today. It's, it's probably seven years of schooling before you, you get your license to practice.
Mike O'Neill: So what was it about physical therapy that attracted you?
Steve Messineo: Well, you know, I went to, when I went to UMass, I was originally going in there as a pre-med student and then, you know, life took me in a different direction at that time. So, but I always had an interest in, in helping people and wanting to be in the medical field. So when I was, once I had graduated, I was just kind of working these average jobs and, and one of the things that started hearing about was this field of physical therapy and some friends of mine who were going to grad school for it and so forth. And at that time I had been playing basketball and actually injured my knee, pretty severely and had to actually go to physical therapy after that and, and get it rehabbed. I had the opportunity to really, get into a great clinic with a guy who owned his own practice and told me it was all about. And he was definitely happy with his decision to, in the things he was doing. And for me, that was attractive because I always wanted to control my own destiny. And so that the opportunity to say, Hey, you know, I can be a physical therapist and own my own business. That's what really attracted me to the field. And, you know, got me going into it.
Mike O'Neill: So that's what kind of drew you to that profession? As a recent graduate, with a physical therapy degree, did you go straight to opening your own practice or did you affiliate with someone else first?
Steve Messineo: Yeah, no, actually I'm so I like, I in the program, I went to, we had a year long internship where I was at this acute care hospital for a year. And then afterwards, I had, an entry-level job as a staff, physical therapy for a company. You know, not too far from where I'm located, about 30 minutes from where I live. And for three years, I was, I worked there and the great part about working there. The company was called Bodyworks Physical Therapy. They're no longer in existence, but the two guys who own the company were looking to build, looking to grow and they needed help. And they wanted somebody who was also open to learning the business side of things. It basically said from the get go that my goal was to own my own practice in three to five years. So they knew right from the get-go that, that was my intention. And they took me under their wings and taught me a lot of stuff, not only about physical therapy and how to take care of patients, but also how to run and manage a business. And they gave me opportunities to learn how to do that. And, That was great. That was, that was big. That was, they were essentially my first coach, so to speak, but they were really good and guided me and help me understand the business side of the, of PT.
Mike O'Neill: Gotcha. Did you have any business courses while you're in PT school?
Steve Messineo: No none at all. Actually. Yeah, there may have been one or two people came in and just talk about what it's like to run a practice or work in a hospital, but there was nothing, extensive, in terms of, really learning how to run a physical therapy practice. And, and most of what I learned was on the job.
Mike O'Neill: So let's make that transition. If I heard you correctly, you spent several years with this other physical therapy group. Did you, from there go open your own practice?
Steve Messineo: Yeah. So I was there for three years and, at the end of three years, I just, decided that it was time to move on. I, there were some things I didn't like about the direction the company was going with. And, and, I decided that I wanted to be closer to home, on to spend more time with family. And, there was an opportunity in the town I lived in to, add a, another physical therapy clinic. So I started exploring, started, you know, putting the plan together, found a location inside a fitness center. And, you know, the rest is history. Within, within a couple of months of starting the process. I had the practice open and we started in August of 2000, actually, I'm sorry. Yeah. August, August of 2002. That's when we opened the practice,
Mike O'Neill: I got you now, as you know, Steve, that our listeners are primarily leaders, they're decision makers, some of our listeners own their own business. I talk to folks almost every day who long to own their own business. And that's in part why I wanted to spend the time with you. We may not get into the specifics of physical therapy, but we're going to be spending time talking about what does it take to start your own business and grow your own business. And you just, you launch right into it. Early on you, you're in the town you want to be in, there was a, maybe a need that you could actually meet. What were some of the early lessons that you learn as a new business owner?
Steve Messineo: Well, I mean, for one, you know, you had to, you had to hustle and you had to take some risks. I mean, we, we leveraged our homes. I say we, I had a business partner. We leveraged our homes. We, we did to get a loan, which we thought was a significant amount back then. And, but we said, you know, we need to do this to get the business running. And, so we did, and from there it was just a lot of, you know, hustling and, and introducing ourselves to different people, especially the various doctor's offices in the area. Being creative in how we could offer our services. So for a while, at the beginning, we used to do some traveling, PT services to local senior citizen homes, just to, bring the therapy to them, make it more convenient. And that allowed us to, to bill and, and, you know, bring in some revenue for our business. And I had to learn to, you know, I was a little bit of a driver and a little bit of, you know, I wasn't as, Open to ideas or open to people as I should have been. And so my customer service at, at some level was not where it needed to be an realizing how to really treat people and take care of people and be aware of where they're coming from. I was a little bit of a bull in the china shop back then. So I had to learn, you know, how to, you know, really see, see things from other people's perspectives in order to be successful. And that, came from certainly work with my business partner who had a great skills in doing that and, and being able to relate to people. But also just in terms of, you know, I guess, stumbling and learning and, and recognizing that you have to make changes if you're going to succeed.
Mike O'Neill: So if I'm hearing you correct. What you're saying is you got to start and you start by doing whatever you gotta do to begin getting folks coming through your door. You started, and continued, you know, reaching out to the medical community, looking for those referrals. But you said you also learned relatively early on in the process that your driver tendency might not have fit, fit as well with, with your clients. And that you had a business partner who that came much more natural, too.
Steve Messineo: Yeah. Yeah. And I was, you know, that's exactly right. And so for me, it was, you know, learning from him and for him learning from me, he, he was the, the driver and the clinic where he really, did well with patients. He had a great personality. People responded to him. And so I had to feed off of that and the same time on the business side of things, you know, he had to learn things from me that he didn't even know and how to handle and manage. So we, we, we played off each other pretty well. And, for me and I was, but I was always the one who really focused on the business development side, and growing the business and, and doing the things we needed to, to have the processes in place and, and for awhile, right out of the gates, we did pretty well. The first thing, one of the first smartest things I did, within the first six months of being in business is hired a marketing firm to help us develop our message, develop our content, develop our strategy for putting ourselves out in the market. And that really, you know, set us on fire in terms of the number of patient visits that came in, because once we implemented it, it was, it was well received and we were able to grow quickly. So that was a good lesson in terms of just being able to say, Hey, I need outside help to improve our marketing process, hiring somebody who really knew what they were doing, who taught me what to do and how to do it. And it made a huge difference for us.
Mike O'Neill: Interesting. Now, as you were growing quickly, did that present. Yet another set of quote problems?
Steve Messineo: Oh, sure. You know, it's a lot of it's around just being able to, hire people and then train them the right way. And, you know, we didn't really have a lot of that in our background, in terms of, really knowing, knowing how to manage people or how to quantify what they were doing and, and the results that they would get for the company. So for the first, you know, after the first, year and a half, almost two years, we were at a position where we're doing well. We had some employees, they were, you know, good. And we had some employees that went through that weren't so great. And, but we were kind of stagnant in terms of where we were going in, in terms of growth and Mark and I are, unfortunately, we're at the time, very much, you know, easily distracted. There are other opportunities that presented themselves and, and some of those things included real estate investments. Some of those things included owning a, a different business entirely and trying to get that going. And so, you know, those distractions you know, took us, took us away from focusing on, on, you know, working on the business instead of just in it. And, and then also working in these other things that were just really not going to, you know, make, unfortunately make much money for us and, you know, looking back at. So, the, the next smart thing I did was, was at a marketing group, presentation, and that was run by Dan Kennedy. A well-known sales and marketing guru. And, one of the leaders there, took me aside. We had a conversation and, at that point in time, I realized that, you know, we really could use a lot of help in terms of the systems and processes we're trying to put in place to grow our business and, and do better. And so I hired my first business coach at that time, and it was probably one of the best decisions I ever made.
Mike O'Neill: Why would you say that? Why was it the best decision you made?
Steve Messineo: I think it's because, he, he did a great job of breaking things down, breaking down the various, parts of running a business, the very various silos. And, and really taking me through an education and process of putting systems into place to make our business more efficient and run better. And, and that also included how we manage employees and kept them happy and, and kept them, efficient in their processes. So it was just a, a long-term education on how to really build and run a business the right way. So that you could quantify it and understand the results that you're getting from it. And then as a result of those results, you could turn around and either pivot or make, make shifts or changes that would allow you to continue to grow and be profitable. And so, but I, I always look at it as a, from a number standpoint, you know, we were at probably doing about $600,000 in gross revenue. The year that, I hired my coach. And within the following year, we had, jumped to $950,000 in gross revenues, which for, you know, a couple of guys who didn't have any really business building background, that was a huge step for us. And it just grew from there.
Mike O'Neill: That is significant. You know, we've talked about two things that you tapped into early on, you engage someone who had a marketing background and they really kind of helped put your practice on the map. And then you said you, you hired a business coach and you've already given some statistics that resulted from putting processes in place. These are things that would reflect positively on your experience. May I ask if you were to kind of look back on mistakes that you might have made as a business owner, what might have been some of those mistakes?
Steve Messineo: Yeah, I, you know, I think some of those mistakes included, just focusing on things that, you know, didn't need to be focused on, like those other opportunities. We ended up. Opening up a indoor batting cage in the same facility we work with. Oh, that took, that ended up being very distracting to us. We tried to do some outside things like, real estate investment. Again, very distracting didn't really get us anywhere, but we had other people, people who we knew as patients or people in the community that influenced us to take a look at these things. And instead of really focusing and honing in on, the business, we were, you know, kind of chomping at the next opportunity and without really dialing in it and that, you know, so really hiring the business coach to help us get focused on that, made a difference in terms of reeling us in and, and allowing us to, you know, stay in the, stay in the lane, so to speak. I think, you know, for us, for, for me, some of the other mistakes I made were really not holding, my partner is accountable as they should have been held in term in terms of running the business. And part of that was because I had the desire to have this desire, to control everything back then. And, and, you know, I knew it wasn't his strength, but at the same time, I also let him get away with things that, you know, it would have been beneficial for him to learn, so that we, we could have, you know, spread our wings a little bit more and opened up more opportunities within the physical therapy realm. And so, you know, those are some of the basic mistakes I made that, if I look back, you know, I would have changed and frankly I probably would have changed the structure of our partnership as a result. And I think the way we did that was not beneficial to me. It was more beneficial to him at the end of the day. But, you know, you live and you learn.
Mike O'Neill: And we do learn. And that's why I asked you if you don't mind, sharing some of those and keeping with the theme of this podcast. Steve, can you think of a situation or situations by which as you kind of look back on that experience where maybe you got stuck and if that happened, what, what happened and what did you do to get unstuck?
Steve Messineo: Yeah. So, there was a point in time where years went by in 2009, we decided that we were going to move out of the current location was too small. And we said, Hey, let's, let's open up our own fitness center in conjunction with the PT. We saw this big vision of, you know, overall wellness and so forth. And so we, we, we built out this, warehouse and created this big, you know, entity with a gym and a physical therapy clinic. It was great. But over time, you know, I, I took on more and more of the responsibility of running the business and I saw my business partner, you know, again, not holding him as accountable as he should have been held. He started looking at things like, for example, he got involved with a nutritional MLM network marketing company was all about that and trying to focus on that and trying to sell that to patients and so forth. And, you know, I got to the point where I got frustrated and you know, his efforts to try to build this thing that he was going to make it, make him all this money. And it, it frankly never really did. So I, I said, all right, you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to start looking at doing my own thing. You know, putting some, you know, side things for myself together, because at that point I'd learned how to, to delegate. And I was able to delegate to the right people in our organization to do a lot of the business minded tasks to where I could take a 10,000 foot view and, and whatever. And, but again, the mistake, it was, it was a blessing and a mistake, mistake being I could have said, all right, well, let's just, you know, re refocus and start, you know, opening more practices and making more money that way. And maybe you know, having conversations about restructuring our, our partnership agreement and so forth. Okay. Did that didn't happen. But what I did do is I started my own coaching business, but that was a, that ended up being you know, the point in time where I started getting really stuck in my own self and what I, what I could accomplish. So I started this more like internet marketing, coaching thing, and it just didn't take off. And I learned some good things from people around me, but it just couldn't make it happen. Couldn't it couldn't get clients on board. And, you know, I wasn't making the money I wanted to make out of it. Cause I was literally thinking, how can I break away from this, this PT entity because of what was going on my partner.
Well, I ended up, doing an networking event where I met my next coach. And you know, we had, she was more of a kind of life business coach. So she understood the fact that, you know, people's own mental attitude and how they view things can impact how they do business. And so we had a conversation and, you know, I remember just explaining all my frustrations and, and, and she kept on asking really unbelievable questions. I don't remember what they were, but she got me to the point where I was just absolutely in tears over the phone and chatting with her. And, you know, she basically said, look, you know, you obviously don't sound like you're a good place. And I had to say, no, you're right. I'm not. And so I hired her and that was a, the, you know, she really kind of took me to the next level of, of, of understanding in my journey here. And it kind of woken me some of the, things that I hadn't awoken to my, myself in terms of how I was, how I perceive things, how I held things in that, you know, basically limited my ability for growth. And within the next, you know, five with five or six years of work together, we just, she just changed my whole attitude on business and life and finding balance and understanding and having joy in the things that you do. And despite all the still having that partner who was doing his thing and so forth, you just kind of realized that, you know, what. There's only so much you can do there. You can only focus on yourself and the things that you want out of life. And, and that's what we did. We're working. She just really helped me kind of, release a lot of the frustrations and anger that I had over a period of time. And it made a huge difference for the growth of our business and where I was going.
Mike O'Neill: You know, Steve, as we work with in my business with business owners, it seems as if they oftentimes think they have to do everything. And in trying to do everything, they fail at some things. And what I've heard you say is that one of the things that you did early on is recognized the value of bringing someone in, who really understood how to market and they help you develop a marketing plan. As you grew, you also acknowledged that maybe you would benefit from a business coach that would help you put in processes that will allow you to replicate what you're doing. And then this last example you just mentioned, and that is you engage a coach that was more of a life coach an this life coach if I understand what you said correctly, it gave you a perspective. And that is to kind of put life in perspective as to what do you want to get out of life and how to restore a sense of, of balance. And it sounds like each of those three moves, paid off handsomely for you. Do you find as you're working in your current role, but do you find that business owners sometimes struggle with asking for help?
Steve Messineo: Yeah, I think so. I think they, and it's not just, you know, coaching help, it's help across the board in the variety of ways that business people can really improve their business. And I think they, you know, maybe they're somewhat jaded and, you know, they're so into it that they can't see from the outside in and see the value of what people can deliver and help them do. And, and, and there's probably some of the same mindset issues that I faced, you know, that they hold internally. You know, things like, I'm not as good as I think I am, or, you know, am I really going to be able to do what, you know, super guy over there who's running a multi-million dollar businesses is going to do. Some of that, those internal beliefs that they grew up with that might be holding them back. There's a lot of things that can get in the way. And if they just, took the time to, you know, find those individuals that can help them with those challenges, they face both internally, as well as within their businesses. It would make an immense difference and, and a lot of it comes down to, I think, you know, you look at the financial cost. And I remember thinking when I hired my, you know, my first coach, oh my God, we're going to pay him this much money a month, over, you know, 12 months to start and so forth and so on. Big picture. I spent probably $20,000 with him on the first year. If you look, remember what I said about the revenue that we generated. The return on investment was astronomical. I mean, we're talking $350,000 return on investment. That $20,000 was well spent. And you know, all the along the way, I always saw that return on investment because I saw a return on the, on the performance as a result of the coaching I was receiving. And that's, you know, That's the value that people should understand. They should also need to go through and experience it and take that leap. Take that risk that I talked about earlier, you know, in my journey, you have to take those risks, those, leaps, but do with the people that you feel, meet your needs, that you have that rapport with, that you feel connected to, that you feel confident they're going to take you somewhere. And then of course, at the end of the day, hold them accountable, hold them accountable for the results you're getting. Not one month or two months or three months out. Those are you know, those are not acceptable, numbers for you to be thinking you're going to turn your business around it. But if you looked at hiring somebody for full year and didn't see the results you wanted, didn't see the return on investment you wanted. And the one that, that at that point in time, you may have to make a decision to move on to somebody else. That's okay. Thats part of business, part of learning its part of understanding, who's going to, who's good and who's not good at what they're doing to help you along your journey. You know, sometimes you, you spend money you don't want to spend. And it doesn't turn out the way you want to, but if you keep on working at it and finding the right people, networking with people, being open to other people, you'll eventually find those people that can actually take your business to a point where you never thought you'd be,
Mike O'Neill: As I'm listening to you, Steve, it would seem to me, you'd be a person that others would seek out. That is, Steve, you've been there. You've done that. When people seek you out and say, I'm thinking about starting my business. And they say, what advice would you offer me? What things come immediately to mind that you have found yourself sharing with others over and over again in the form of aspiring business owners, entrepreneurs who want to do that? What do you recommend?
Steve Messineo: I'd recommend a couple of things. It's funny when I talked to, you know, young business owners are looking for some advice, I get fired up, I get excited. I enjoy that process, but for me, it's about helping them to one, understand what they should do and also avoid, you know, simple mistakes that, you know, I made, out of the gates. So, one of the things I always recommend is a plan. Start with a plan and understand what that plan is to understand what you're, how you're going to achieve the objectives you set in the plan. Understand, the timeline behind that and set many goals for yourself along the way that are achievable that allow you to take a step by step process for building the business and meeting the, the, the numbers that you want to achieve out of that business. Also in having a plan, understand that there is some financial risk that you should take, you know, there's some of these people bootstrap their businesses and frankly, they don't need to, if they have a good plan that is, you know, with, a following of people that in a, in a plan that makes sense from a business side of things, they can get money. They can get loan money, whether it's from a private source or a bank source, that'll help them improve their cashflow. You know, really start the business on the right grounds in terms of all the things they need to do to get it out there in the community. And it can make a world of difference, but the ones that I find try to bootstrap it, you know, the process is a lot slower because they're always worried about money. And so they don't open themselves to the opportunities to work with people that can help them move along a lot faster.
Mike O'Neill: Steve, this is sage guidance. Appreciate what you have shared thus far as you kind of reflect on our conversation. If you wanted to say, here are the things I want to make sure that the listeners heard with Steve, what might be those things?
Steve Messineo: I would just say the, the biggest key is to always be open to learning and from other people and taking that knowledge and implementing it in your business. I'm still learning. Even today. I still, I recently just hired another coach to improve upon my sales process. And not that I didn't have a lot of experience in sales, I did, but there's always a little tweaks in ways to do things even better. So I've decided to hire another individual who I got to know and learned about and saw how the process that he wants to take me through. And I said, that is my guy. It felt comfortable, you know, bringing him on board. And then within a couple of, you know, weeks that have been working with him, the information he's been given me is spot on. It's only helping me improve my own processes for the current role I'm in. So, you know, it's always about constant learning and it's maybe, maybe not just from a coach, but you know, there's plenty, there's a wealth of resources on Amazon called books that, you know, audio books, you know, reading books, whatever you like. I mean, just picking up a book and one of the, the keys that I've, I learned from one of these books and I forget what it was, but the author said, just read 10 pages a day of some sort of business book. 10 pages a day. If you, you know, whether it's end of the day, beginning of the day, get your brain working 10 pages a day can, add up to just so much knowledge, so much more ability to do things the way you want to in your business. And of course, as a result, improving your profits and, the success of your business. It makes a huge difference. And there's books that on mind set that can make a big difference for germs, your happiness and your balance that you find in your life. So look at those as well. There's just so many resources out there. Listen to your, your colleagues, your colleagues, your mentors, the people that you do business with and get suggestions on what to read or who to contact. If you need help. Those people also have a wealth of knowledge and wealth of individuals to put you in touch with and, and then vet those individuals or those books to what's, you know, what your mind works like, and, you know, look, there've been plenty of books I've opened and started reading because somebody recommended it to me. And I read the first couple of chapters and got bored and shut them off. And yet I'd get another book about the same topic and it was just written to my style and enjoyed it and read through the whole thing. So there's, again, you're going to go through that process of, of, vetting books or materials or educational stuff or, or coaches, and other people that are going to help you. Just do it as part of the process and be open to it. And that's all I can say.
Mike O'Neill: So for folks who have listened to this podcast, they have also have vetted you. And that is if they're listening to you and they want to learn more. If folks want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do so.
Steve Messineo: I'd say the best way to find me on LinkedIn. www.linkedin.com/in/stevemessineo/. Steve is the best way to find me. Obviously you'll see the information on my profile. If you want to connect with me, you know, I'm pretty open to accepting connections, especially if you've mention in this podcast. And, you know, at that point, once I make a connection, if you're open to a conversation, then I'm, I'm, I'm open to it as well. Always looking to build my network and see what other individuals are doing.
Mike O'Neill: We're going to include your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. So don't worry about writing this down. Those will be included in the show notes. Steve, this has been a real treat. Thank you.
Steve Messineo: You're welcome, Mike. Thank you for having me. It definitely, I, I love this stuff, as you can tell by my, my passion on this. And so it's, it's always great to share my journey with other people and I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to do so.
Mike O'Neill: Your passion does come through loud and clear. Okay. I would want to thank also the listeners who have joined us for this episode of Get Unstuck & On Target. We upload the latest episode every Thursday. And if you haven't already please subscribe. You can find this podcast on apple, Google, Spotify, or whatever platform you prefer. You know, life is too short to let business problems keep you up at night. So if you've been listening to my conversation with Steve and you're realizing that something is keeping you or your business stuck. Let's talk, go to our website, bench-builders.com or just go to your browser and type unstuck.show to schedule a quick call. So I want thank you for joining us. And I hope you have picked up on some tips that help you Get Unstuck & On Target. Until next time.