September 27

Episode 141: Leadership Lessons from Disaster Zones


In today’s episode, Mike talks with former UPS VP Craig Arnold about disaster response logistics.

Craig shares how UPS built partnerships with nonprofits to distribute aid globally, and why embracing failure, egoless collaboration, and humility enabled success. Lessons like involving wider teams beyond leadership apply directly to business partnerships, leadership, and teamwork.

Craig Arnold’s Bio

I worked for UPS from 1987 to 2022. I retired and then joined Swoop Aero.

My team designs and manufactures drones that, amongst other things, provide last mile delivery of vaccines, emergency medical items, urgent spare parts. We also provide mapping and data gathering services. We build relationships and provide solutions for customers, and potential customers. Our approach is to work with companies to understand their goals and objectives, map supply chains, white board solutions, share industry best practices, and deliver on projects that unlock value.

I’m also passionate about the work of the Salvation Army and other NGOs responding to natural disasters. I volunteer with Red Lightning a non profit that I co-founded. We provide logistics and operations services to help our partners optimize their response and preparedness activities.

In This Episode…

  • How UPS built partnerships with nonprofits like Red Cross for disaster response
  • Logistics of delivering and distributing medical supplies in developing countries
  • Craig’s perspective on embracing failure and learning in disaster relief work
  • Importance of humility, egolessness, and collaboration in crisis scenarios
  • Perspective shift Craig experienced from corporate world to humanitarian work
  • How lessons from disaster response apply to business leadership and teamwork
  • Craig’s personal motivations and “heart passion” for service and helping others
  • Keys to forging effective partnerships across sectors and organizations
  • Craig’s approach to problem-solving by involving wider teams beyond leadership

Links & Resources Mentioned…

Read The Transcript

Mike O'Neill: Welcome back to Get Unstuck and On Target. I'm Mike O'Neill. Whether we at BenchBuilders are working with supervisors to improve their people skills or it's me coaching a CEO one on one, getting leaders and companies unstuck is at the heart of everything we do. And that is podcast is about. Each week we invite incredible guests who share their hard won experiences of getting themselves or others unstuck, back on target, and moving forward.

And I hope it gets you unstuck and on target. As well. Joining me is Craig Arnold. Craig is the a drone logistics provider that specializes in last mile delivery of critical healthcare items in the developing world. He's got a fascinating background. Prior to 2023, Craig was the, a VP with UPS Healthcare.

He joined UPS in 1987 and he held positions in the U. S., Malaysia, throughout the world. Europe and Australia. And it's from Australia that we're speaking to Craig today. Craig also sits on two nonprofit boards focused on disaster relief. That would include the Luke commission and red lightning, a organization that he's the co founder of. There's so much that we can talk about. Let's just get started. Welcome, Craig.

Craig Arnold: Thank you so much. Thanks for the opportunity. I'm humbled by the introduction and thinking that I could help people get unstuck, but I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Mike O'Neill: Well, as I step back, there's a little bit of a, a almost a modern day, Indiana Jones about you, because what I didn't talk about is what this really entails.

You do not have a typical work day. We're recording this, for example, at 8 AM. in the United States. And it is 10 PM for you and Melbourne. And as I understand, that's the nature of your work. You're not on a fixed schedule and you're zigzagging the world, helping not just routine matters, but so often it's companies, excuse me.

It could be companies, but oftentimes countries, they're in crisis and all kinds of crisis. Can we speak to a little bit about what types of crisis have you in your career been involved with?

Craig Arnold: Sure. Yeah. So I think probably a really good example would be crisis that impacted all of us with was the COVID pandemic.

And at the time I was working for UPS health care, and I was coming to the end of a 35 year career and considering retirement. And in 2020, I was asked to be in charge of the revenue side of the UPS health care business outside the US. So, I had a big team in Europe, a few people in Asia, one person in all the Middle East and Africa at the beginning of COVID and then a small team in Latin America and started that job in January 2020 and obviously things changed dramatically over the next couple of months and ended up staying until October 2022 when I retired, but in those, that two and a half years, we spent a lot of time there.

Initially learning about what UPS as an organization was going to do in response to the COVID pandemic. And that meant initially flying in large portions of large quantities of PPE from the middle from. Asia, primarily into the US and Europe. Gloves and mask and everything, and then it went to moving the clinical trial vaccine through the UPS market network.

And then eventually we got to the, to the point of. Delivering vaccine and really the area where UPS was most needed was in the area of ultra cold for the Pfizer mRNA vaccine, which had to be transported at minus 60 to minus 80 Celsius. And there were a lot of other things in the protocol that made it very important that we were able to deliver something.

With extreme quality, but also very concerned about speed and effectiveness of that supply chain. So we learned an awful lot building that out for the call it the commercial side of the business through my career. I've also spent a lot of time working with the UPS foundation and in that time responded to a number of international disasters, earthquakes and hurricanes and other things working on emergency supply chains and Thank you.

Through that, started a foundation with a friend of mine, Mike Schiffler, called Red Lightning, and we had primarily funded by the UPS Foundation in our early days, and we were still working very closely with the foundation, and Mike challenged me. He said, you need to go talk to the UPS Foundation and say, what are you going to do to help those countries that don't have access to ultra cold supply chains, but need it for the mRNA vaccine?

And it was a, it was a great. Challenge for me to get me unstuck. I got on a call with with someone from Pfizer that I'm pretty close with a couple people from the UPS side of the commercial side of the business. And I said, Hey, we've got a ton of learnings and we've trained hundreds of people throughout our organizations built ultra cold freezer farms in a couple of countries and done all these great things.

To move things in the commercial or in a, in the developed world how can we help in these, in these places that don't have that? They don't have that supply chain. They don't have either the oftentimes the understanding and the expertise required to move ultra cold, but also the physical things like freezers that go down to minus 60 to minus 80 or dry ice machines or other things that were needed, vaccine carrying cases and so forth.

So that started with getting in touch with Ministries of Health and just saying, how can we help? What, you know, what's your plan for if Kovacs is a lot of a certain amount of Ultra cold vaccine for COVID to your country. What's your plan to get it delivered? And what we found was there was another gap and there was a, there was an international response that would that looked at getting vaccine into capital cities for those countries.

And a lot of the countries then had very little infrastructure. Especially in, in Sub Saharan Africa to deliver from the capital city out to district hospitals, and then even further when you go from district hospitals out to villages. And so what, what ended up happening is we found we had about 16 countries that we worked with 10 virtual, six in person.

My first visit was to Malawi where we met with the ministry of health and a number of different people in the central vaccine store and just said, what's your plan? And Turns out they were receiving a fair bit of vaccine in the COVAX allocation, but they really didn't have a plan of how to deal with it.

After it arrived in the capital city, they could only dose about 100, 000 people in the country at a time, but they were receiving 4 million doses of vaccine that had to be stored a minus 60 minus 80. And they didn't have the. The equipment, no dry ice in the country. No ultra cold freezers in the country.

So we worked on all sorts of different models in those 16 countries. Anything you can imagine probably from helping people procure dry ice from other countries doing things like supplying and the UPS foundation was a huge funder and big supporter of this along with Pfizer. of putting in ultra cold freezers into district hospitals, small portable freezers that could be hand carried, plugged into a cigarette lighter and driven out to villages, things that just were not in their normal supply chain.

But also building out training. So what does it look like when you receive a dry ice shipment? Because some, some of the folks in the supply chains would have never done that before. How do you safely open a container that has dry ice in it? And then how do you manage that throughout the supply chain?

How do you make sure you stay within the temperature ranges and the protocol that drive all the way from storage into the arm of the recipient? And that was for me, the, a really passion filled project. It was, it was really cool to see sort of what I was interested in. In my non day job and my day job merging together in a really powerful way.

In the end, UPS helped fund the delivery of 50 million doses of Pfizer vaccine into developing countries where those countries didn't pay for the transportation. And, and that was really, that was a lot of fun for me in doing that. I met Subaru, which is a drone company that was already active in Malawi doing last mile delivery from district hospitals out to rural villages.

That are like a four or six hour drive on a dirt road. They're getting there in 3040 minutes with with a drone. And I thought, well, that's really powerful. And I had some work with UPS with other drone companies, and 1 of the things that was different about Subaru was they were landing on both ends because of the vertical take off and landing.

They were able to put, for instance, the 1st thing I saw was PCR test. Going from a district hospital out samples being gathered and then put back in that same drone and the drone flying itself back to the district hospital. And I was standing there with the district health officer. And I said, how is this impacting you?

And he said, well, that's a 2 day. Normally, that would have taken 2 days and we would have had to dispatch a driver and they would drive down this road and. Some of the pictures of these roads that we drove down just to get the experience and to actually do it very, very tough infrastructure challenges and we're super was just flying right over the top of it, delivering and that the mechanism is built in a way and the processes are such that.

The work itself is quite easy on the other end, you press a button, the lid pops open, you take out the cargo, you do what you need to do, you put it back in, you close the lid and press a button, the system boots back up, checks to see if it's safe, and then flies itself using the GPS coordinates back to where it came from, so that bi directional piece was something that our other providers in the drone space for UPS came from.

weren't doing at the time. And so that was really exciting for me. And so that's how I ended up with with Subaru. I retired from UPS in October, 2022 and started straight away with with Subaru. So yeah, it's fun.

Mike O'Neill: Yeah. I'm sitting here wanting to ask more follow up questions regarding logistics, because what you're describing is very complex, but I want to resist that temptation.

And if you will allow me when I'm. Listening to you describe logistics, what I'm hearing is a lot of analysis, kind of a head. Issue. I'd like to go back to a word you mentioned very quickly, and that was passion. I'd like to kind of get in to the heart side of what you're doing now and why you're doing that.

You retired after a very successful career. But can we speak to kind of the heart side of when you're on the ground in these disaster Areas and you're seeing how whatever it is you're involved with, it's making a difference. How does that speak to your heart?

Craig Arnold: Yeah. So for me, I grew up in a family where service was important.

My parents were ministers in the Salvation Army. And I saw from a very young age that serving each other and with a, with a, with humility and with that mindset of helping people up. And, and bringing them back to where they were or, or maybe even better in situations of disaster response or, or personal crisis.

I, I just grew up with that in the house. It was, it was inbred, whether I wanted it to be or not that came from a deep religious foundation from my parents that was important to them. And it became important to my sister and I, and, and it's something that, Has probably driven many of those decisions that at the time you don't think about it, but then you make the decision, you go, well, maybe that ties back to this, this this foundation.

So, I started with UPS when I was 18, and I really had no intention of staying past a year of college, maybe 2, and then I was going to go on and do something else. But I. Was very quickly promoted in within less than a year into a part time supervisor role. And in that we did some training and in that training, there was.

All sorts of things on how to get the job done. Basically, how to lead people, how to deal with with difficult employees, giving performance reviews and whatever. On the very last day, a person came in and they spent about, it must have been an hour on this topic of service, and they started by saying, Hey, does anyone know what the S in UPS stands for?

And most people in the room didn't. I mean, what do we know, right? UPS, whatever. Well, it's service. And then, then they said, who do you think UPS serves? And and people quickly said all customers that came out quickly, which is a good answer. And then we were privately held. So, you know, it wasn't like today where it's a public company, but at the time it was privately held.

So the answer was the owners of the business. Well, that's true. Yes, people that have stock in the business were serving them. Sure. And then eventually we got to employees were serving each other. We want to, especially as supervisors and new leaders in the company, we want to serve our employees appropriately.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then eventually there was this long pause and the guy kept saying, what else? What else? What else? And finally, he said, you're missing a very important 1 and we serve the communities where we live and work. And, and I remember thinking, well, that's kind of aligned with.

With my upbringing, that's kind of aligned with with this. area of service that the Salvation Army was doing. And I, and that was the first time I thought, well, maybe I, maybe I might give this more than just a year or a year and a half of, of part time work while I'm at school. And really that's been instilled in, in the UPS.

Environment really from the very beginning it was it was yes, it's important that we're delivering a service that people want to pay for and that delivers profit. And those things are really important, but it's, it's equally important that we do that in an ethical way. And that we do it in a way that not only delivers.

Advantages to our customers, but also looks for ways to give back and that's this seems to be a really nice catchphrase in the last 20 years that we're going to give back and whatever that was something that UPS has been doing forever. And so when I got to know the foundation a little bit, and the foundation is funded.

By employee donations and also some other fundraising, but that that money given back to the community is for a number of years. UPS was the largest donor to the United way over 80 Million dollars a year and just a really significant. Amount of concentration on giving back in an appropriate way.

So the 1st time I worked with the Salvation Army was in or in a disaster response outside the U.S. was Haiti in 2010 after the earthquake. And I had a friend who was he and his wife were running a children's home. In Port au Prince, they happen to be in St. Louis when the earthquake happened, having their first child, but when the when the earthquake happened, I called him and I said, what are you going to do?

And he says, I'm going back because I can't get in touch with any of the, the other people in Port au Prince that would know the condition of the home and the children in it. They had 46 kids, I think, at the children's home at that point. And and so he said, the Salvation Army is letting me go back.

I'm, I'm leaving tomorrow. And I said, I'm going to come and help. I don't know what you need. I don't know what you do. And. I reached out to UPS thinking, Hey, I've got some vacation time stored up. Can, can I go? And my boss at that time was extremely gracious and said, get on a plane and go do whatever you can do to help.

When you get there and you get a lay of the land, please contact the UPS Foundation and see if we can plug in the UPS Foundation to help. We ended up serving 1.2 million meals over 23 days. 10 7 57s UPS 757s, worked very closely with the 82nd Airborne to get everything delivered safely. Just an amazing project, bringing together the skills, And the assets and the funding and the intentionality of community service from the UPS foundation and the Salvation Army in a way that was just life changing for me.

And I said, this is something that's, that's, that I definitely need to figure out how to make part of my day to day. And then after that. We had a number of responses to Cyclone in the Philippines, I think was next. And then Vanuatu. Mike, who I mentioned from Red Lightning, went to Nepal. I supported that remotely.

And then U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico during Irma and Maria. And then, of course, the coven response, and then most recently, I didn't go, but red lightning was deployed to Hawaii during the the fires in Maui and put out 125 starling systems. Into rural are into areas that were impacted by by the fire so that they could have telecommunications and Internet service.

Within less than a week, we had 50 out and then that ended up being at 125. so. Just serving in those responses, looking for niche areas that other agencies aren't aren't serving. And that could be anything from a drone delivering vaccine in the last mile to a starling to set up Internet connectivity and phone connectivity for a pharmacy that can't do business until they have it after a fire or in some cases just lugging bags of rice from a ship to a pickup truck and driving it into a place that no one else can would.

Well, that larger agencies weren't getting to because they were doing bigger things. So maybe serving 40, 50, 000 meals at a time in a, in a major city that's impacted by a natural disaster.

But those rural communities that are 4 miles out of the city that are also impacted, but they're very hard to get to and they're small. That fits the, the niche that that really the red lightning team does. So, you asked about passion. It, what, it's not like. It wasn't a strategy that I had when I started my career or that I looked at throughout my career.

I think my, the co founder of red lightning talks about the will, just saying yes, and being willing to help opens up incredible opportunities and that's really what happened. So, we did this, that 1st thing in Haiti, and then whatever it was, 2 years later, 18 months later, Salvation Army called and said, we're going to deploy a team to the Philippines.

We'd like you to come and help. Like you did in Haiti, contacted UPS and said, what do you think? And they said, go. And it just this constant desire to get out there and do impactful things and tie together those again, assets and people and intelligence and ingenuity and innovativeness and funding from the, from the for profit world and bringing that into community work in a way that, that I thought was really, and I still believe is really impactful.

Mike O'Neill: Your co founder used the term, just say yes. Yeah, you have said yes, multiple times to what effect? How has this affected your life?

Craig Arnold: Yeah, it's certainly changed my perspective. I think I think when you can connect that desire to help and a willingness to help. And bring without fear of failure, just going out, stepping out and making that attempt to do something.

It's changed my, my willingness to fail. I think it's changed my. Yeah, it's changed my perspective on what's really important in those in those situations. It's not important who gets their logo on. I've seen so many agencies do so many weird things to get promoted and get their. Get their likes or get their, you know, what I'm not saying there isn't room for that in, in philanthropy.

However, when that becomes your goal, you've got the wrong motivation and you see that. So I think don't care who gets the credit. Don't care if we fail. I mean, I would always joke with the team that at least every day in a disaster response or a healthcare equity project in a difficult part of the world, solving something very difficult, you're going to fail way more than you succeed.

And every day you're going to get punched in the gut really hard by something. I'll give you a great example. We we went to St. Thomas flew to Puerto Rico after Irma in Puerto Rico was only marginally impacted by Irma, but we set up a little supply chain there with a UPS aircraft. Actually, that was a small plane that was We were allowed to use, and we had supplies from the Salvation Army in San Juan, which is great, but the real impacted areas were St. Thomas, St. John's, another part of the U. S. and British Virgin Islands.

So, we flew over to St. Thomas and we set up this nice little supply chain. So, Salvation Army's bringing things in a full plane load from San Juan into St. Thomas, and then we would distribute, we had a restaurant in St. Thomas that we were using to prepare meals and really generous.

Team of of cooks and waiters and stuff that we're helping for the people that were homeless from the, from the from Irma Hurricane Irma. And then we were taking quantities out to St. Croix and out to St. Thomas on boats. And we just had this really cool little supply chain. And I remember sitting there thinking, man, this is easier than it should be.

This is, you know, but sure enough. We're sitting there one night, maybe night three or four. And the guy whose house we were staying in came down with his iPad. And he said, see this red swirly thing here. That's Maria and it's going to be here in whatever, two, three days, it's going to be a category four or five when it gets here.

So you guys need to leave and we all made the decision. We're not going to leave. We'll hunker down and we'll stay because then we'll just open up the supply chain. And I remember saying, as long as that thing doesn't hit Puerto Rico, we're fine. Cause that's where our supplies come from. We'll just clean out the supply chain, we'll get everything out and then we'll start right back up as soon as, cause they're going to need us even more after that.

And then of course he scrolled over a little bit. He said, that's going to be the worst natural disaster to ever hit Puerto Rico. And so you have to start completely from scratch. We have to get, we ended up getting a, a great partner, a UPS or sorry, a Salvation Army board member from Fort Lauderdale who has his own aircraft was able to fly some things in.

We brought some things in from Panama, just a crazy supply chain challenge. That we didn't think we were going to have when we started and ended up being the, really the bulk of the work. And I went back to my day job at UPS and Mike went on to Puerto Rico and stayed for two more months. And, and he ended up heading up the Salvation Army's operations there for for I think two, two and a half, three months.

So it just. Gives you the example that you are going to have a lot of things that you try a lot of things that you set up in this space and you, and you're going to fail and that's okay, or when you sit down with the ministry of health in a country and say, we're going to do all this if you want it and it's free and we just want to help and here's these corporate partners and here's the QA procedures.

We're going to do this the right way. And it's going to be completely for free. And they say, no, thank you. And you go, how can that, what, you know, that doesn't make sense to me, but you just have to, you get to that point where, you know, it's okay, it's okay. That not everything is received. Well, it's okay.

That not everything is going to work the way you want it to work. I'm much more courageous in that work than I am in my day job, where you become over time, especially I think in a large corporation where with. Certain levels of responsibility, you become a little bit more cautious and a little bit less interested in taking really big risk.

Whereas in this work, there's nothing to lose. And and you're just out there doing the best you can with what you have. And then, you know, some of them are going to be home runs, but you're going to have a lot of strikeouts as well.

Mike O'Neill: Yeah, it was pretty clear to me what was crossing my mind as you're describing in my work.

In the private sector there's a reason why the organization exists. Profitability is one of those things, but the collective mindset is minimize risk. And if you minimize risk, what that means is you're less likely. To take a chance. And what I'm hearing you say is that at least in your experience in the work that you are doing and the organizations that you all partner with, you realize mistakes will be made, but you're doing things in some cases that have never been done before.

Yeah. And if you get wrapped around about the impossibilities, it won't get done. Could I go back to something you said a moment ago, and that is you go. Thank you. You sit down with a health minister and you describe, we are happy to offer these things, no strings attached, no cost. And they say, no, what might be reasons why they would say, no.

Craig Arnold: Some very, very good reasons risk. I, I remember sitting with 1 team that just said, look, we're going to tell that we don't want ultra vaccine because even if we get it in and we get it properly distributed to the districts. What if there isn't enough uptake for the vaccine and then we're going to end up having it spoil and we're going to look bad and whatever.

And it's, and it's very hard to manage this vaccine. What if we just take the two to eight vaccines that are coming from other parts of the world? So we're a little, in that case, they were more risk averse and didn't want to participate. So that's a good reason. That's a fair reason. Other reasons, maybe not so much maybe local inappropriate contracts.

Maybe things where, where there's a fear of the West coming in, or a fear of someone coming into that would that would want the credit or that would want to take away from from the that minister's departments. Position that's that's something that that you run into a bit. There's a fair and in fairness, they, a lot of the countries where we've worked at, or where we worked in the space.

On the humanitarian side they have been badly mistreated by people from other countries for a long time. And so there is a little bit of distrust that even though, even though you really are trying to help, it's, they're going to be some people that just are not going to trust you. And that's okay.

And that's, again, that's where I think. I think about the things that I've learned in doing this work, as opposed to sort of the day job corporate work. It's, it's okay to put out a number of things and not have them hit. That's okay, because the ones that do hit are going to be really impactful. And, and they'll, they're Definitely life saving projects that happened as a result of two or three things failing first, and eventually you find the right solution or you find like in, in Haiti is a good example in our initial response working with the Salvation Army, we had a, we had some grand plans that never happened, but they led to this relationship where.

We had security concerns in the first couple days that we tried to distribute food to a large group of people, 15, 000 people in a soccer stadium. And as we were trying to deliver food, we had, we had appropriately requested. Security support from UN agencies or from UN troops, and there was just, they were stretched too thin and they would send a couple of people to control massive crowds.

And eventually, after 2 pretty nasty events, trying to get things done. We stumbled upon an avenue to engage with the 82nd Airborne and then the 82nd Airborne came and help us security. And what we ended up putting in was a very good supply chain with UPS on the origin. And we had about 100 people working for us on the, on local people working for us, doing the, the unload of the aircraft and the, and the loading into trucks.

And then we had the 82nd Airborne doing security with us. And it was just a, it was, it took. probably two pretty tough failures for us to get to that point. But when we got to that point, it was repeated nine other times. And as I mentioned before, we're able to do, I think it was 1. 23 million meals in 20 some days. So Yeah.

Mike O'Neill: That's phenomenal. You know, one of the things I keep hearing you make reference to is the degree in which you have forged partnerships and those partnerships are not just one and done lessons learned in this situation can carry over to the next. And if I heard you correctly, 1 of the things you said is that 1 of the challenges is that if you're going to be doing a partnership, you have to be less concerned about who gets credit.

Craig Arnold: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that was, it's difficult sometimes when you put so much effort and energy into something for your ego not to get in the way, but I've seen so many people fail in in humanitarian projects because their own importance becomes a stumbling block to getting work done. And I won't mention agency names, but I've seen agencies literally fly in their CEO to a disaster ground the airport for an hour.

Well, politicians come out, they take a picture and then they get in their private jet and fly off. And you're like, Is that really? And their argument would be, well, yeah, but we're raising a ton of money by doing that. Well, okay, I'd rather have three more cargo planes full of medicine, water and food and shelter kits arrived than using that time for for this.

But you you see that a lot. Unfortunately, um And and so it's something I think I've battled internally, and I make I really try to make sure to ask myself in any decisions that I'm making in those places. Is this am I making the decision to get the things done that need to get done? Or am I making this decision to make.

My brand, personal brand, or the brand of Subaru or red lightning, or even the loop commission look better because if it's, if it's the latter, that's the wrong motivation and eventually you're going to fail eventually. So, yeah, it's, it's a really, it's humbling when you do it right and it works and then you look back and you go, wow, by getting out of the way, we were able to do that, but it does take some risk.

Mike O'Neill: You know, as I hear from listeners about what do they get from the podcast, one of the things I clearly have picked up on is fortunately, the listeners are also the people who make decisions to use our services. These are key decision makers, and what you've just shared today is how that approach in a leadership setting can end up being much more effective.

Because the ego gets out of the way, and you step back and say, what is in the best interest of fill in the blank with.

Craig Arnold: Yeah, I think. Oh, sorry to interrupt. I was just going to say that definitely translates, not just into humanitarian work. It absolutely translates into the boardroom. It translates into your team meetings.

It translates into your 1 on 1 interactions with people that work for you, your vendors, your customers. In fact, I would say the biggest. The most difficult situations I find leaders that work for me or that I work with the biggest stumbling block for for people that struggle in difficult situations is either their own insecurities.

And their desire to overcome that by being more aggressive or being more falsely confident. And the ability for people to accept that you may not always have the best idea. In fact, I had a conversation just today, actually, with with a couple of people and I said, look, there's 3 of us trying to solve a really, really difficult problem.

But there's about 50 people that know more about this than we do, because they actually do the work. So let's get some of them in the room and let's let let's just present a problem and let them solve it for us. And we might find that they don't have a great idea between and maybe there isn't an innovation there.

But I do know this 50 people are smarter than three. So let's get, let's get everyone thinking, let's get everyone working on this problem and let's be authentic about it and let's not worry about who gets the credit. And so I believe there's I believe there's good lessons learned for us there in the for profit corporate world and in the nonprofit delivering humanitarian services world as well.

Mike O'Neill: Greg, when we had our pre record call and I got a chance to know you a little bit I was hoping then that we'd be able to kind of see Craig, the person and you have come through loud and clear. You are not only effective. Professionally, but you do such a masterful job of kind of explaining the complex and you shared with us why that's made a difference in your life and how you see it's made a difference in the life of others.

And I just want to say thank you for sharing your expertise and your passion.

Craig Arnold: Thanks very much. And thanks for those words. It's always a team effort. Now,

Mike O'Neill: I know you make reference to a team, but if folks want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that, Craig?

Craig Arnold: Sure. Probably email is just as easy as anything else.

My email is Swoop is S W O O P and then dot A E R O aero.

Mike O'Neill: Got it. We will include that in the show notes. Again, thank you, Craig. You're more than welcome. Thank you. I also want to thank our listeners for joining us today. For even more insights about getting unstuck and moving your business forward, I invite you to subscribe to the Bottom Line newsletter by going to BenchBuilders.Com.

You know, when people ask, Mike, what are you... Do I've begun responding that I have found that the clients we work with, they usually had one of two problems. Either they were frustrated because they were losing the employees that they wanted to keep, or their leaders found themselves stuck in the weeds of the day to day and failing to execute on their long term strategy.

So if you're listening and high turnover or poor execution, if that's slowing your growth, let's talk. Head over to to schedule a call. So I want to thank you for joining us and I hope you have picked up on some quick wins from Craig that will help you get unstuck and on target.

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