In today’s episode, Mike talks with Susan Borke – the Principal of BorkeWorks is passionate about helping people develop as effective negotiators. She believes no one is born a master negotiator. Great negotiation skills come from a combination of knowledge, training, and practice.
Susan Borke’s Biography
“If you don’t ask, you don’t get.” Susan Borke first used this simple principle as a financially-strapped college student who needed to find a way to get course credit for an unpaid internship, without paying tuition. It was one of her first successful negotiations and helped to spark her passion for teaching this strategy, and other effective negotiating techniques, to business people of every level.
Susan Borke, the Principal of BorkeWorks is passionate about helping people develop as effective negotiators. She believes no one is born a master negotiator. Great negotiation skills come from a combination of knowledge, training, and practice.
Susan has over 35 years of negotiating and negotiation training experience with domestic and international commercial companies, educational institutions, and nonprofits as a media executive at CBS and in-house counsel at the National Geographic Society. In addition to her private corporate and nonprofit clients, Susan is an adjunct professor at Georgetown University School of Continuing Studies teaching their negotiation course.
Questions in This Episode
- Now negotiation, when people think of negotiation, they might automatically assume formal negotiation. Negotiation kind of surfaces in so many different ways. Does it not?
- Can you just kinda walk us through with when someone enrolls in a negotiation course at Georgetown, what is it that they’re learning? What is it you’re helping them get a better grasp for?
- When I think of negotiations, I think of two dug-in parties coming to the table and they’re trying to get out of the other party something that they want. That’s not really an accurate representation of what negotiation is, is it?
- How do you help negotiators better understand the other position?
- Now, is there a word for that? An ability to understand another perspective?
- So cognitive empathy, and that is one’s ability to understand another’s perspective, you may not agree is a starting point. Continue walking us through that, if that’s the starting point. What else goes into this?
- You used the word excavating a moment ago, and I thought that was a very descriptive word, particularly when I was envisioning National Geographic. But the, the way you have to kind of go down in layers I don’t wanna get too far afield, but I’ve always had a natural curiosity about this and that is the, the mindset that people have going into negotiation does sometimes do those positions get determined at an early point in one’s life in terms of how, how conflict might be in that dealt with in, in a family. And, and does that factor to any of your training for negotiation at all?
- I’m listening to you say that assumptions versus hypothesis, hypothesis sounds a little more scientific, a little more detached, whereas assumptions feel, at least seem to me be a more, more personal. Is that right?
- Susan. We just got back. My wife and I got back from being in New York and I, I think of, the United Nations and I think of negotiations that are protracted over days, weeks, years.
And that’s a different type of negotiation from everyday negotiation. Why don’t we come back to everyday negotiation? I know you’re working primarily with people who might be in Business school or the like. But can you give maybe some other examples where negotiation kind of is inherent in everyday life?
- As people know, these are not scripted conversations, but you came up with a, a perfect illustration of how just everyday negotiation is something that we need to be attuned to and at a, it happens much more than we might would realize. Susan, as you think about situations where perhaps you or a client might have gotten stuck, can you reflect on that and maybe share with us what did it take for them to get unstuck.
- You shed quite a bit of light on just the dimensions of negotiating. If you were to kind of reflect on what you’ve shared with us, what do you want the takeaways to be?
Links & Resources Mentioned…
- Website – www.borkeworks.com
- LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/susanborke/
Mike O'Neill: Welcome back to the Get Unstuck and On Target podcast. I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders and as a coach, I get to work with owners and leaders that help them solve the problems that are slowing their company's growth. The most common are people problems. Joining me today is Susan Borke. As the founder of BorkeWorks, Susan is passionate about helping people develop as effective negotiators.
She helps her clients ask for what they want and get what they need with less anxiety and better results. She believes that no one is born an expert negotiator. But great negotiation skills come from a combination of knowledge, training, and practice. She has over 35 years of negotiating and negotiation training experience with both domestic and international companies, with educational institutions and nonprofits as a media executive at CBS and in-house council at the National Geographic Society.
In addition to her private, corporate, and nonprofit clients, Susan is an adjunct professor at Georgetown University School of Law, where she teaches their negotiation course. Welcome, Susan.
Susan Borke: Thank you. Just a quick, just a quick correction. Sorry about that. It's actually the Georgetown University School of Continuing Studies.
Mike O'Neill: Well, I'm glad you corrected that. Do you want me to just let that, let that go like it is? Yeah, that's fine.
Susan Borke: All right.
Mike O'Neill: Now negotiation, when people think of negotiation, they might automatically assume formal negotiation. Negotiation kind of surfaces in so many different ways. Does it not?
Susan Borke: It absolutely does.
I like to say that really anytime there's a request, so somebody asks you to do something or you ask somebody to do something, that is an opportunity to negotiate. Now, unless you're, unless you're like a small child or a teenager, you don't have to take every one of those as a negotiation. But you, you, part of it is, we are so, , we feel so stressed and pressed for time that very often we feel the necessity of just immediately answering yes or no.
That sort of, binary response. And what I really want people to do when it, when they're trying to evaluate, whether they should be negotiating something or not, is to kind of take a breath and maybe ask a question. So, for example, if your manager comes to you and says, I need you to do this, project, I think it'll be great exposure for you.
What do you say? And you wanna be able to, you, you might in the back of your head be like, yes, I'd like to do this. Oh, but I have so much going on. Or you might be like, I absolutely, this has no appeal to me whatsoever. So you may, you may wanna try and rather than again saying yes or no, immediately ask a question.
And one good question is, when is this due? Right? What, when you know, and or how am I, how much are you willing for me to talk about how this would fit into my existing workload and whether we can, offload another opportunity to somebody who would benefit from that, from what I'm trying to get done right now.
So those kinds of questions and they can help indicate to you, whether this is something you wanna make the time to prepare for and negotiate effectively.
Mike O'Neill: So we've kind of almost started with more of an informal example of how negotiation kind of works its way into our everyday life. I know that you being an adjunct professor at Georgetown's, I wanna say it right this time, School of Continuing Studies.
Can you just kinda walk us through with when someone enrolls in a negotiation course at Georgetown's University of Continuing Studies? That's a mouthful.
Susan Borke: Just say Georgetown. It's so much easier.
Mike O'Neill: Thank you. What is it that they're learning? What is it you're helping them get a better grasp for?
Susan Borke: Well, the students I teach are, are, they're in a Master's program. And they're full-time. They're people who are working full-time and going to school part-time because they're looking to further their careers. My course is an elective, which is fine, and what really it is, is introducing them to a strategic approach.
An intentional and strategic approach to undertaking a negotiation. So, as you pointed out, the skills that I'm teaching are skills that work professionally, will be very helpful at work. Whether you're negotiating with outside vendors, whether you're negotiating with internal, for internal resources.
You're compensation, obviously, everybody's first thought and priority, or if you're negotiating something at home or outside of work with friends or family. So all of those, the skills are, are basically the same. I have, I teach this course usually goes over the summer. It's usually 13 weeks. So one of the things that I think is incredibly helpful is we do a negotiation every week.
So there's a preparation that they do and then the students negotiate because I think the best way that you learn and become more proficient as a negotiator is by, is through practice.
Mike O'Neill: So to get better at it, you have to do it. But what we're describing now, negotiations, I'm, when I think of negotiations, I think of two dug-in parties coming to the table and they're trying to get out of the other party something that they want.
That's not really an accurate representation of what negotiation is.
Susan Borke: Well, some negotiations are like that, and those tend to fall more under, the subheading say of conflict resolution or dispute resolution. Right. So that, when you use the phrase dug in, what that suggests to me is that there's been, there's a history, right?
These, the, these parties have been interacting with each other in a way that is has been, has been much less effective for them. And, and so they've been, They've been focused on their positions rather their in than their interests. They've been, they've failed to listen to each other. They're focused on a competition of winning in this, whatever this situation is, rather than looking at the opportunity to solve a problem, I really like to look at a negotiation as a problem solving exercise. Because, when we approach a negotiation that way, even if our counterparty isn't, and I understand right there can be very competitive, challenging people with whom, anyone has to negotiate.
When we though approach it as a problem solving exercise, what we're realizing or and sort of unconsciously and explicitly acknowledging is that we need this other party. We're only gonna reach a solution. An agreement if they're engaged and involved. Now, there may be no agreement and we have to also be prepared and understand what we're gonna do if there is no agreement.
So all those things are part of a negotiation.
Mike O'Neill: You made a comment a moment ago that caught my attention, and that is, it could very well be that you are going into these discussions with an open mind to really listen, but the other party might not. But you're basically encouraging all parties.
But if you're talking to one side versus the other, is to go into it with a kind of an open mind. How do youhelp n egotiators better understand the other position.
Susan Borke: Okay, so the first step is understanding your counterparty's position, but more importantly, you wanna understand their interests.
Okay. As a precursor to that sort of before, before we get to that, we have to realize that they have a perspective and their perspective can be completely valid. So let me give you an illustrative story. There's, a teacher asks students in the classroom, what color is an apple? And some students say an apple is red.
Other students say apples are green or can be green. And one student says apples are white. And the teacher's like apples are white. Right. Who's, who's ever seen, right? I mean, let's break out of the story for a minute. Have you ever seen a white apple? I've never seen a white apple. So, so the teacher's like apples aren't white, and the student's like, yeah, apples are white, and, and finally the teacher finally says, well what? Help me understand how is an apple white? And the student says, when you cut into an apple, all you see is white. Right. The outside is red. The inside was red or green. The But the inside is white. Apples are white. So here's a situation where you have very different perspectives.
The outside of the apple is red, so apples are red. The inside of the apple is white, so apples are white. Now both of these statements are true. Right? Both of these very what would seem mutually exclusive perspectives are still perfectly, they, they exist. They exist with validity.
And what you have to understand when you're in a negotiation is that the other person may have a very different perspective than you do. You're not gonna get anywhere until you understand their perspective. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to understand it.
Mike O'Neill: Now, is there a word for that? An ability to understand another perspective?
Susan Borke: Some people call that empathy. It's kind of, I think the sub is, is set as sort of cognitive empathy because you're intellectually sort of, looking to understand another person's perspective. So that would be the phrase I might use. Do you have one you'd use?
Mike O'Neill: No, actually I love that expression, cognitive empathy, cuz I was thinking the word empathy, but that kind of connotes feelings, at least in in, in my mind.
So cognitive empathy, and that is one's ability to understand another's perspective, you may not agree is a starting point. Continue walking us through that, if that's the starting point. What else goes into this.
Susan Borke: Well, you have to understand that people, what they say they want is not always what they, what they actually need or what their underlying interests are.
So this is a situation you can have and, and sometimes the person who's taking a very strong position may, may not even realize kind of that they're, they're trading one thing or using one thing to represent another. So let me be more concrete. When I worked at National Geographic Society, we worked, we would engage photographers to do projects, to do articles, and sometimes a photographer would come to us with, with work that they had started or an opportunity they had that was unique.
They came with a very special opportunity and they might come with a very high position on compensation on how much, they, they, oh, I need to have this much money to do it, or this is, how much I need to be paid. And it was so high, is to be, outside even the standards.
Right? Nobody would pay this kind of money. And what would happen is we'd begin to start talking about it and they'd be like, oh, well your National Geographic. And let me also back up a minute. Our editors would be like, Hey, you have an opportunity to be in National Geographic as a photographer. This is worth real.
This is worth something to you, so why would we pay you all this on top of it? And that's an easy prescription for the kind of dug-in positions that you were talking about at the beginning. As we began to talk about it, the editors began to articulate and acknowledge they had an interest in original and interesting photography to feature in the magazine.
So they were looking for high quality photography that was an interest. They also have an interest in meeting their budget requirements, so they're, if they pay all their budget to one person, they don't have anything else, to pay for photography for the rest of the year.
So that's a problem. And they have to be mindful of it, of staying within their budget. The photographer is indeed interested in getting published in National Geographic Magazine because they will reach a huge audience and it is a, quality stamp of approval for what they're doing. At the same time, they feel very strongly about their editorial, right?
How the, how their story is gonna be told and how many images are gonna be used and which image, who gets to choose those images. Right. And then, and that feeling, that fear of losing control of having no say in kind of how their work is presented to the world that, is, can often be the crux of why the dollar figure is so high if I'm just handing everything over to you and you're gonna do whatever you want with it.
Then, I want a lot of money. Whereas if they learn that they're gonna be in, the, our editors engage them in the editorial process, it's a, it's a dialogue. It's not a, it's not a do this, do that. Would the understanding of what readers and, the audience for National Geographic are looking for, so that their story can actually reach people effectively.
if they understand that, it's not gonna be that they turn over all their images and they don't ever get any more money out of them for the rest of their lives, that, that there's a, there's a certain set of rights that National Geographic needs to achieve its business and, editorial objectives, but that they will have rights that allow them a continuing revenue stream so they're not, it's not a one and done, they're can have a continuing revenue stream.
Then there's the opportunity for them to reduce, right. What their initial payment ha, is gonna be. And so that process of excavating what each party's interests are and seeing where sometimes they have the same interest, right? Or, and that's always like, we'd like to reach agreement. Both parties wanna reach agreement that's the same interest.
Other times they may have differing interests and there are ways of, of dovetailing them or finding ways to, meet them. Sometimes even at the end of the day through what you, you might call horse trading. Right. I'll, I'll give up on, I'll, I'll make a compromise on this if you're willing to make a compromise on that.
Mike O'Neill: You used the word excavating a moment ago, and I thought that was a very descriptive word, particularly when I was envisioning National Geographic. But the, the way you have to kind of go down in layers I don't wanna get too far afield, but I've always had a natural curiosity about this and that is the, the mindset that people have going into negotiation does sometimes do those positions get determined at an early point in one's life in terms of how, how conflict might be in that dealt with in, in a family. And, and does that factor to any of your training for negotiation at all?
Susan Borke: I think, I think the answer to what you're saying is yes, we certainly have patterns of how we might deal with what we perceive as situations of conflict or situations where we are very invested in achieving a certain result and feeling like we, are having difficulty doing that, or the other person is failing to see the importance of whatever it is and the value.
So, so that's true. I think that one of the ways I try to, to help people overcome some of their biases, yes. Right. There's the, you know what the confirmation bias is, right?
Mike O'Neill: I do. But why don't you, for our listeners, clarify, please.
Susan Borke: Oh, I was gonna ask you, I was gonna say you should do that, but I will happily do it.
The confirmation bias is that when we make a decision about something often, or even if, even when we're sort of taking a position about something, we'll tend to only see and register the things that are consistent with our conclusion and what we, what we'll miss is information that might contradict it.
So, in a negotiation where that's important and what I say to people is to avoid assumptions and really think in terms of hypotheses. So what do you think is the difference between an assumption and a hypotheses? What do you see as that difference? To see if I've, I've picked the right terms.
Mike O'Neill: As I'm listening to you say that assumptions versus hypothesis, hypothesis sounds a little more scientific, a little more detached, whereas assumptions feel, at least seem to me be a more, more personal.
Susan Borke: Yes. I think, I think you, you've captured two important elements, sort of our individual investment in something. So with a hypothesis. If your hypothesis, you put a hypothesis, you have a, you come in, you have a hypothesis. I think that my counterparty's interest is, they wanna make a lot of money because they, they see that as a reflection of their self-worth.
Okay. And then I come in, if I come in with that as an assumption, then everything they say or every part of our discussion about money, I will see it as them being talking about their self-worth. Now, if I come in with it as a hypothesis and I begin to test my hypothesis, I indeed may find that I'm correct, and that's, that's terrific.
I may also find out, then I'm at least open to the possibility I'm wrong. And as I ask questions, I may find out that this is a person who has very significant student loans and their, their concern is ensuring that they can pay their student loans, make a living, make a living compensation that allows them to, move forward in their life, plus maybe save money for a house or to take care of, a child's education needs or whatever it is.
So when I have a hypothesis, the beauty of that is that if I get contradicting information, I will utilize it. I will see it as helpful rather than as inconsistent with my assumption, and therefore to be disregarded.
Mike O'Neill: Susan. We just got back. My wife and I got back from being in New York and I, I think of, the United Nations and I think of negotiations that are protracted over days, weeks, years.
And that's a different type of negotiation from everyday negotiation. Why don't we come back to everyday negotiation? I know you're working primarily with people who might be in Business school or the like. But can you give maybe some other examples where negotiation kind of is inherent in everyday life?
Susan Borke: So, let's talk about your trip to New York. First of all, there may have been some discussion about the destination, right? That may have been a negotiation that you had. The timing, the, the way or how you were gonna stay Airbnb, hotel, staying with friends, staying in the city, staying out of the city.
These are all things that would feed into an overall negotiation about a business or, or vacation kind of destination, trip, right? Does that, is that, am I addressing what you're, getting at or is there something that, that you're thinking more specifically?
Mike O'Neill: I think you're, you're addressing it just fine.
I'm just trying to make sure that as we're listening to you give us insights and negotiation that we can understand how these practical tips can apply to us every single day, not just at quote, the negotiating table.
Susan Borke: So, so part of it is, sometimes a vacation negotiation to take that example and move it a little further can be about, there can be a sticking point or there can be about destination. I want to go to the mountains. I wanna go to the beach, right? So what is it about the mountains or the beach that's appealing? And it might be, well, when we go to the mountains, we can stay at my cousin's cabin and it's a lot, it's less expensive.
Plus we can hike. I really like to be able to hike. It's important to me. We we do that in the fall when it isn't as hot, and, and these are all, these are all the things that feed into it. Now, going to the beach, I may like to go to the beach because I find the sound of the ocean calming.
I like, the ability to go on a boardwalk and, do restaurants or other, even, ticky tacky games or whatever it is, but it's a contrast to just sitting on the beach and doing nothing. I like to walk, run the boardwalk or hike on the board, walk on the boardwalk early in the morning when it's quiet.
So now let's think about this. What are, you know what feeds into this? Well, there are different times of year. So was there a way to do both at different times? Is there a way to reduce the expense of a beach vacation by going off season? Which still allows the walking, the sitting, whatever else, but, and, and things, you can go at least on more of a colder season and many things will still be open.
So, there are different ways to talk about this, but you're opening by, if you say beach mountains, right, then everything's binary. If you say, well, what do you want? Why are we, what's the appeal of one or the other? Then you can see, what might be, maybe we go to San Antonio.
Because they have a great Riverwalk. So there's water and there's, there's, the ability to do that. And then maybe it's easy to go not too far out of the city and be able to do some kind of hiking more in nature, so you find a place that, meets certain, certain of these interests for both parties.
Mike O'Neill: Susan, you handled that very, very well. As people know, these are not scripted conversations, but you came up with a, a perfect illustration of how just everyday negotiation is something that we need to be attuned to and at a, it happens much more than we might would realize. Susan, as you think about situations where perhaps you or a client might have gotten stuck, can you reflect on that and maybe share with us what did it take for them to get unstuck.
Susan Borke: Well, I've had a couple of different situations. One was very recent where somebody called me and said she, she had been working with a client as kind of a, what's the like a parental leave, coverage, doing parental leave coverage on a position for a few months cuz the person holding it was out on parental leave and the contract, was to do that.
The compensation, she was fine with because it, it was pretty, it was sort of part-time and what have you. They came back and she is a particular expertise. So a, a technical, kind of expertise. And they were, they came back and said, we'd really like you to create a program that, you know, that, that really drew on our expertise, and it was gonna be for a few, require working for a few months.
Again, you're a consultant. It's never quite full-time. But certainly they, wanted a significant, they, there were serious deliverables and those kinds of things. So, and they come back with an offer of compensation. So this is to do what she's really experienced in and kind of is her bread and butter work for less than the original, than the prior engagement, which was kind of covering for somebody she knew, doing, keeping the wheels, keeping the wheels on the cars as it were, as it was moving down the road.
Keeping the car on the road, I guess. Yeah. So she felt a little, she, she was kind of shocked and put out cuz she'd given them a proposal with a, with a more market standard for her, this type of work, compensation. And they came in substantially below. So she was trying to figure out how to respond.
And part of it, was thinking about where they were coming from, which may have been almost thinking that this would be easy. Right. And you know as a coach, and I know for what I do, people pay us for the value we bring, they, they don't pay us for whether or not it's easy for us to do. Because we spent a lot of years getting to the point where we may have a certain facility and a definite expertise in what we do.
We talked about it and basically, she thinking about what was important to them, thinking about what was important to her. She was able to craft a response that talked about how, excited she was about the opportunity. Cuz she was, I mean this wasn't, puffy. She really was interested in working with them and giving them, helping them with a certain product.
And it was pointing out that it was a product that not only would work for one part of the organization, but they could then con, easily adapt to other parts. So there was real, ex additional value to them without requiring additional expenditure to her. They could. And, and also that this was her expertise and this is something that, if they looked elsewhere, they would pay at least as much, if not more.
So kind of to give it a context, and then finally as a way of helping them save face, say, I'm willing to offer you my X percent tax exempt organization discount. Right. Because they were, they were a tax exempt organization, so, so she was, she was able to reduce her original ask a small amount, and still, provide all this ways of giving them context, talking about her interests of working with them, being mindful of their interest for, how, how they spend their money by showing them that they could get this additional value. All of that went into the response and in fact, they accepted her counter offer, which was more than 25% over what their counter offer to her had been.
Mike O'Neill: I am glad you used that as an example because that was one through my mind as a perfect illustration of how negotiation factors in either you, the employee or you the manager are dealing with salary negotiations as a matter of routine. Perfect example.
Susan Borke: And, and let me, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
I do wanna say there's a tendency to focus on salary negotiations as having a number, being a number. And I think that that again, gets you into positions. I want this number, all right, I can only pay you this number. It becomes much more interesting and, and much more satisfying when you, when you again, excavate a little bit and think about what else is going into this compensation and so is there an issue of other benefits? Right, with hybrid work? That's a whole area that comes into play. It could be that, I may have an interest in working from home more frequently. Right. So is there a way to ensure I can do that three days a week and only have to be in the office two days?
That may be part of what goes into it. Because if I'm not commuting in three days a week, at least around Washington DC where I am, I'm saving real money. Yes. At the same time, independance, it may not ha, may have nothing to do with that. What it may have more to do with is what kind of work am I gonna be doing?
What? What are the steps that allow, that if I meet them, I know I will be elevate, be able to get an increase or a bonus or a promotion or whatever the, whatever those things might be of interest to me. And for a manager, if somebody knows what their clear path is, right, what's expected of them, that, that helps me as a manager because my people know what I need them to.
Mike O'Neill: I'm glad you elaborated on that because you are right in quote, salary negotiation. Oftentimes the starting and sometimes ending point are numbers and you're just pointing out, there's far more to it. You shed quite a bit of light on just the dimensions of negotiating. If you were to kind of reflect on what you've shared with us, what do you want the takeaways to be?
Susan Borke: So I would say one thing is to really understand that there can be different perspectives held by different people, right? In this negotiation and, and the fact that the person has a different perspective or a different understanding, it doesn't make it wrong, right? You, you need to understand where everybody's coming from as well as yourself, right?
What's going into that, and related to that, is this whole idea of approaching that conversation and a negotiation with a real curiosity about what's going on. What are other people, what the, what is your counterparty thinking? Who's, who else are they negotiating with, like in their own organization or in their own life that you don't know about?
All captured by the word, dealing with hypotheses and trying to avoid assumption. And then finally the last thing that we've talked about that I think is really important is to understand that what somebody says in terms of a position is only part, right? I'd say it's the tip of the iceberg, and their interests are everything that's underneath.
And we know for a fact, right, that the tip of an iceberg is a small percentage of the iceburg . Where the substance of the iceberg is, where the majority of it is, what lies beneath the surface, and that's, that's where you're gonna have the more interesting, resor conversation about whatever it is you're negotiating.
Mike O'Neill: The iceberg illustration probably is perfect for this conversation because what we have only done is we've only covered the tip of the iceberg. If folks want to learn more and reach out to you. What's the best way for them to connect with you Susan?
Susan Borke: I have a website, so it's my last name, b o r k e, and then the word works, so Borkeworks.com.
I'm also reachable on LinkedIn and I'm kind of lucky that my name Susan Borke is reasonably, it should come up with only a couple of other choices. And I'm the one, I'm the one who does negotiation, so I think I'll pop out that way.
Mike O'Neill: Well, matter of fact, it was on LinkedIn, I think that you and I first crossed paths.
So Susan, we scheduled this literally months in advance and I'm glad that the time has come for us to come together. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us today.
Susan Borke: And thank you for introducing me to your audience. I really appreciate it.
Mike O'Neill: I also want to thank our listeners for joining us today. This is episode 109, so if you want to access all the podcasts, you can go to our website, bench-builders.com.
While you're there, you can also subscribe to our weekly blog called The Bottom Line. This is a weekly newsletter and it's a quick read that offers even more practical management tips somewhat like we've covered today. So if you're trying to grow your business and you wanna make sure that you've got the right people process and planning systems in place to grow smoothly, let's talk.
Head over to bench-builders.com to schedule a call. We'll talk about your growth goals and we'll explore some practical steps that you can take right now to make sure that that growth happens. So I wanna thank you for joining us, and I hope that you have picked up on some tips from Susan that will help you get unstuck and on target.
Until next time.