This week Mike speaks with guest Marc Borrelli about building a company that will thrive without you needing to be there. Marc tells Mike about his successes and also the times when he needed help growing his business. He offers a wealth of experience and advice for new entrepreneurs to CEOs.
Marc Borrelli’s Biography
Marc Borrelli is a Strategic Advisor and Business & Leadership Growth Coach to CEOs and Executive Teams Worldwide. He coaches company CEOs and leadership teams to build growth companies and Scale2Freedom. In addition, he is a Vistage Chair helping Business Leaders and C Level executives achieve greater results through a peer environment.
In This Episode, You’ll Learn…
- About the business philosophy of build, thrive, and exit
- How to plan your exit within planning your business
- The difference between business strategy and exit strategy
- How critical cash flow is when growing your business
- When to step back and delegate or let go to fuel the success of a business
- How to transfer decision making
- How to achieve clarity in your organization
- How to achieve an engaged leadership team and staff
- How to get your people aligned to your core strategy
- Things employers can do to make their employees feel recognized and a meaningful part of the company
- What are core customers and their profitability
- What is a value promise
- How to avoid losing focus within the organization
- How to simplify the overall description of what you or your business do
- Why you should work with a coach
- “You should be able to go on holiday for six months and not worry about it.”—Marc Borrelli
- “Leaving things to chance is not a good strategy. Hope is not a strategy.”—Marc Borrelli
- “With growth comes complexity. With growth comes confusion.”—Mike O’Neill
- “You can’t grow unless you let go.”—Marc Borrelli
- “A great team that’s working together with the right leaders will outperform everybody else.”—Marc Borrelli
- “The minute you start to do everything, you do nothing.”—Marc Borrelli
- “For a lot of people starting, we don’t believe our value.”—Marc Borrelli
- “Sometimes when it all looks bleak, rip up the playbook and start again with the original focus you had. But just say, if we didn’t do it this way, how can we do it better?”—Marc Borrelli
Links & Resources Mentioned
- Marc’s website: https://marcborrelli.com/
- Marc’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/business-coach-atlanta/
- Marc’s Calendar Link – “Are you a CEO, President, or Owner who’d like to book a free hour of coaching? If yes, please use this link to book a call: – https://calendly.com/borrelli-marc/free-coaching”
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Mike O'Neill: Welcome back to the Get Unstuck & On Target Podcast, I'm Mike O'Neill with Bench Builders and we're business coaches who love helping leaders sleep better because they've solved their tough planning, process and to people problems in this podcast, we're talking with thought leaders to get their insights on ways to help you or your business get unstuck. Joining me today is Marc Borrelli. Marc is a business and leadership growth coach and founder of Kaizen Solutions and Scale 2 Freedom. Welcome Marc.
Marc Borrelli: Thanks, Mike, it's a pleasure to be here.
Mike O'Neill: It's the business that call Scale 2 Freedom that really kind of intrigues me most. And I would hope we would be able to spend some time learning a little more about your approach as to how you help your clients. But you use as your tagline, how to build a company that can thrive without you.
Marc Borrelli: Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely true because you know, it's, again, it's also that Scale 2 Freedom. You need to, if you think back any of us when we started or whatever job we got to have, if you're essential to the job, you can never get promoted because nobody can afford to lose you. So if you want to be free and take all the stuff you create with your business and enjoy it, you need to become redundant. And so your business has to thrive without you. And one of the things I often say is, you know, you should be able to go on holiday for six months and not worry about it. Yes, you can check in, but it should operate without you. And so if you scale your business and get it big, usually you have to put in a leadership team. And if they're a good team, they operate with action and then you have freedom. You can either sell it and you can be what I call a coupon clipper and just collect dividends or cash that it throws off. You can leave it to your children, leave it to your employees, but you have options. And the more options you have the better off you are. So it's that whole concept of creating your own redundancy, but that's not simple. It takes a lot of work.
Mike O'Neill: But we're gonna dig into that. I love the three words that seem to summarize the kind of things you can do for your clients. Build, Thrive, Exit.
Marc Borrelli: Yeah.
Mike O'Neill: And, I've had a number of podcasts, guests who have been able to kind of elaborate on building and thriving, but only a few on the exit. What is it about thinking about your exit be in if you're a business owner or a business leader, why is that important to be thinking about now?
Marc Borrelli: I think you should always plan your. Now I have a lot of people say that, you know, you should plan your business strategy should have your exit in mind. And I think there are two different things. Your business has a strategy and you have a strategy and they're not, they are not the same thing, but yes, you should always plan your exit because one day you will exit. We all exit. We have no choice. We're humans, we will die. Something will happen. And as humans, we don't like to think about that. So we tend to put it off and, you know, prior to becoming a business coach, I got into this business into my original career because I sold a family business. I helped my mother do it many years ago and we basically walked away with nothing. And I thought, you know, I got to figure out how to do this. So I was an investment banker for six years. I worked in-house for fortune five hundreds running the MNA departments. I went back to invest banking. I started my own MNA advisory firm, all that before I became a coach to get me to help people understand how to grow value. And I think, you know, I've in my career, I've seen all sorts of bad things happen. I've seen people get divorced and in the divorce proceedings destroy the entire value of their business. I've seen people have a stroke. But not bad enough that it cripples them, but it affects their judgment. And they've taken all the value out of their business in the next five years, just by making bad decisions and not letting anybody else help them. I've seen two very successful men who were best friends, built up an amazing business. Couple of hundred million in value, both died in a car wreck, going to see a client. Their wives took over who hated each other and destroyed the whole company in five years.
Mike O'Neill: Wow.
Marc Borrelli: Leaving things to chance is not a good strategy. Hope is not a strategy. So I think you should plan your exit. However it's going to be, and that can change your exit may be I'm going to sell it and take a lot of money off the table. Maybe I'm going to leave it to other people and maybe I'm just going to collect money from it. But if you build it so you can achieve those choices, I said in the beginning you have options and then your exits pretty much taken care of how that happens, whether it happens by chance or in a planned way.
Mike O'Neill: You know, you shared with me prior that, you know, when business is good, it can come to the point that when business is good, it can be potentially overwhelming. And that is with growth comes complexity with growth comes, potential confusion. You, you also kind of shared in that in today's economic times, boy oh boy, it's so unpredictable and something that you kind of have highlighted is as a business leader or business owner. One of the things that can be most challenging in a growth situation is cashflow.
Marc Borrelli: That's absolutely true.
Mike O'Neill: Why is that?
Marc Borrelli: So most people don't look at this well enough and I look at their business and they say, we're making a profit. And they just assume profit translates into cash flow. What happens depending on your business? So for example, a company that I was working with recently, they're growing, I think they're going to go from about 2 million to 6 million in sales, which is a of a great ear for them. But when you look at their financials for every extra dollar of sales revenue they're going to take $20 of cash to drive it because they're working capital requirements between, their accounts receivable, which aren't getting paid for 60, 90 days. There's suppliers who are requiring them to pay much shorter times, because they're still a relatively new company and their employees, they can't fund this working capital. So they're seeing all this success, but what's probably may elude them from achieving it because they don't have the working capital to grow. And when you're a $2 million company, it's hard to then go get a bank to give you a big enough loan to cover it. And so cashflow becomes critical and, you need to understand your true cash mechanism and how you drive value.
Mike O'Neill: You know, Marc, this is a recurring theme. My last podcast guest founded out a business, grew a business. And the biggest challenge she had was exactly what we're talking about right now. And that is cashflow you also just talking about with growth, that it comes with it it's exciting, but it also means likely stress. It means frustration, be it personally and professionally, but can growth infuse some sort of doubt into the process?
Marc Borrelli: Oh, I think so. I think what happens with growth? So when a business owner starts a business, you know, and if I look at all my clients who started business, they started in their garage. They started in the spare bedroom. They got two friends together. They'd never had an office and they built the business from scratch and they knew everything. They knew their clients, they knew everything, they were doing it all. And as the business grows, they can't do it all anymore. So they have to delegate work to other people and what you find hard for a lot of business owners to make that successful transition is the conflict. They want to know what's going on. They want that control because they feel without it is too much confusion. And so they don't let go, but you can't grow unless you let go. And the problem is they want all the decision-making and there's a great speaker called, David Marquette and talks about you know, you have to transfer decision-making to where the knowledge is or the information is and the information is on the front lines, which so you have to transfer all the decision-making down to the front lines. But to do that the people on the front lines have to understand what the strategy is, what the intent is and what the objective is. And I think what happens for many business owners, they're not clear on that. I mean, just the other day I was talking to a business owner and I said to him, what is it you do? Explain to me what you do. And after about a 15 minute response, I said, you're all over the place. I don't really know what you do.
Mike O'Neill: Yes.
Marc Borrelli: If somebody asked me to refer you, I wouldn't know what to refer you to. You've listed 50 things here. Tell me if somebody is Googling you, Googling what they want done so that your name pops up. What is it they're going to ask to do? So you have to create that clarity. And I think to succeeded your growth is creating a lot of clarity. I mean, you need to be able to explain your strategy in one sentence, you need to be able to explain how you make money. You need to explain who your core customers, and if you can do these with great deal of clarity and then push that down through the organization, the organization will do a lot better. You know, I love the example. I think we discussed it last time. Herb Keller was Southwest airlines, you know, they said to them, how do you make money? Wheels up. I mean, two words explained everything. What your job is to make sure the wheels are up because when the wheels up we make money, how do we improve efficiency? How to we get planes turned all to get the wheels up faster. And that is a great way of thinking. And if you can do that within your business, you can really lead to much more transformation because people understand what the objective is. They can think of new processes and drive value and growth.
Mike O'Neill: So Marc, I want to unpack that a little bit more. You said that you will sometimes be talking to business owners, business leaders, and you ask what should be a softball question. What do you do? And you get this rambling response and that until they can get very, very clear who they are, what they do, how they do it. How, what they do is different than the competitors. If you can't reduce that to a few sentences, if I'm hearing you correctly, then you're not going to be able to push into the organization decision-making. Because you can't explain to your own team what it is. You're all are about.
Marc Borrelli: Absolutely. And, you know, I work with clients trying to achieve this and they say to me, sometimes this is really hard. And I'm like, yes, it's very hard. But only the companies that really spend time doing it end up being truly successful in scale. It's not easy, but it takes iterations to get there, but you will get there if you keep working at it.
Mike O'Neill: So for the sake of our conversation, let's say that clarity is achieved. And now the business leader says, okay, I want to push that into my organization. I know that the decisions need to be on that front line. What might be a couple of practical tips that you give business leaders on how to take that clear vision, clear strategy and push it into the organization in a meaningful way.
Marc Borrelli: So a number of ways, I think very quickly, you have to start, you have to push out the strategy, the simple strategy, the core customers, all those core things. You have to push that and you have to repeat that. You know, telling people once just doesn't work, they got to hear it until you're kind of sick of saying, but the second, most important thing is stopped giving orders or instructions, but ask questions. So when they come to you and say, you know, what should I do? You ask questions? And then when they come back with a response, will, how does that fit with that? You know, what's our strategy. They give you the one sentence. So how does it fit with that? And get them to start thinking that way, because if you supply the answers, they'll never think that way you will own everything. And if they can't think within the framework of the strategy and how you make money and who you're serving and all these things, that's not going to work either. So you have to get that mental connection to open. But if you feed it down quickly and your people will quickly notice it and they'll feed it down, it, you know, it'll start happening right away. The thing you gotta do is not grab it back. When things go wrong, they're going to make mistakes. Everybody does, you know, it's like when you delegate the first time you delegate it and not as good as you, but after a while, they may be better than you, but you've got to allow them to improve and make mistakes.
Mike O'Neill: You know, you share so far the importance of aligning strategy with operational tactics, by making sure that the people who are really in the frontline on that front line, understand that and can embrace it. That they can say it back to you and relate everything they're doing to that strategy. So we've talked a little bit about alignment, but to what extent is an engaged team and engage workforce important to success?
Marc Borrelli: Absolutely. I mean, without it it's, you know, you and I talked about this 90% of business problems, are people problems. Machines are pretty easy. Computers are pretty easy. Yes. It may not work, but we can fix those, but people are all different. They're all kinds of, they're all unique. They all have different drives and motivations. And so you have got to work on pulling them together. The great team that's working together with the right leaders will outperform everybody else. I mean, there's so many studies on this from seal team leaders, putting different leaders in boats, allow that team to achieve where they couldn't achieve before. And I think so you've got to get people aligned. And I think the first place is that question. Why do you exist as an organization? Do you have a purpose that's bigger than yourself that makes people want to be on belonged to that. So that gets them bought then do they culturally fit with you? I mean, it's Jim Collins says culture is strategy.
Mike O'Neill: Yes.
Marc Borrelli: So do they align with your cultural objectives? But even once you've done that, you know, that doesn't mean just because they've got culture, they fit and they believe in your higher vision. You've got to keep checking on them. I mean, you know, you look at Lencioni's five dysfunctions of a team. I think it's great to check on your leadership team regularly. I tell people to do the Gallup 12 questions survey the employees every six months because. Well, they may be culturally. You may not realize you're sending, I mean, what often happens, I'm sure you've seen it in your HR work. Business CEOs and leaders often send very mixed messages without even realizing. And they destroy their culture as they do it. And the employees then don't trust. And they're just not going along with this game and that just breaks the whole system down. So you have to make sure that you are delivering on what you say, like you deliver to your customers and check your customer satisfaction, check on your employees and deal with them as people. I mean, I think COVID was, has been a great lesson to those who paid attention. Your employees wanted empathy. They want to know you care and the company, the CEO's who reached out and checked on their employees and made sure they cared not how was the work getting done, but actually, how are you, how is your family? How are your children? They will have people who will stay them. What longer people will remember the kinds of things people do. They don't remember the money. And, so I think empathy is going to be a big factor going forward. And if you haven't figured that out, you're really going to be at a disadvantage.
Mike O'Neill: Marc, do you work primarily with private or publicly held companies?
Marc Borrelli: Private. I work primarily with companies probably five to a hundred million that are looking to grow.
Mike O'Neill: When you're working with a private company and you're working perhaps with the founder or key leadership, oftentimes profitability is somewhat kept close to the vest.
Marc Borrelli: Yes.
Mike O'Neill: If you're going to push decision-making into the organization, such that there is alignment such, there is a level of engagement. How do you advise your clients on the financial aspects? When an employee says, all right, I get this. How do you broach the subject of profitability? If all this is going to do is put money in the owner's pocket, how do you help address that potential aspect?
Marc Borrelli: So I think, you know, that's a great question and I, I reminds you of a fantastic cartoon of a guy sitting in a Ferrari, looking at a man standing next to him. He says, Fred, if you work really hard and hit all your KPIs next year, I can buy another new car. So yes, it's a real issue, but I think many CEOs and business owners want to keep their cards very close to their chest. They don't want to share information. What I say is, if you go back to Jim Collins, you know, he has a great metric profit per X, and it profit can be any profit and X, anything, and it's unique to your business and you need to tell all your employees they need to understand that and they need to be able to influence both the revenue line and the cost line, so they can get to that profit per X. Now, in most cases, that is a gross profit or contribution margin. It's not what is the net profit? What's the owners taking home, but if they can actually see what the results are and they feel they're having an impact and you've bought in with them in culture, and then what the greater goal of the organization is, I think that helps. But then going back to the empathy question is when you have an employee. Ask them what is it you want to achieve? You know, I, one of the greatest stories I love and forgive me a Can't remember his name is just, I've had a senior moment. You know, he said, when we hire a new person, we celebrate the day they start, we celebrate the week and we celebrate all the new hires for the week. And we have a party. And one of the things we do at the party is tell you to get up and read off your bucket list. And we make a commitment that in your first year with us, we will help you attain one item on your bucket list. We won't pay for it, but we will do whatever we can to help you attain it. Like if you need to be in California and we can arrange it so you're on a sales trip there at the right time. We will do what we can to help you achieve it. Now for most people in life, if the company in the first year that there is going to help them achieve their bucket list item, that is huge. These people care about me. That's what we want. You know, we're humans, we're pack animals. We want to be part of the pack. We want to be welcomed into the pack. We want to feel like we matter. And we're key in that path. And I think that's, what's going to touch people and too many business owners are so worried about sharing the profitability and they tie down to numbers that they never invest in the empathy.
Mike O'Neill: Yeah, I love what you're describing here, because what you're acknowledging is you don't necessarily have to reveal net profit to the owner, but you've got to be able to gives employees a sense of how, what is it that I am doing? How does that move the needle? And if it's profit per X and you're able to share that and they can see how, what they're doing can contribute to X. I love when you mentioned, Herb's wheels up, those two words basically summarize the whole business strategy. If we ain't flying. We ain't making money part of my bad English. But all that to say is, as a business coach, we've spent most of our time talking about the people challenge of owning and running a business. May I ask, you've worked with clients and sometimes those clients get stuck, perhaps even you've gotten stuck. Can you share maybe some examples where you got stuck, where they got stuck and what did you do to get unstuck?
Marc Borrelli: So where I see people get stuck and I've got many examples, but I'll use myself when I was in my MNA world is you're starting your business and it's growing, but you're desperate for revenue because you're already taking on expense lines. And so somebody comes along and says, can you do X? And they're like, absolutely. I can do anything. And I understand why we do it because I did, but the minute you start to do anything, you do nothing. I can't refer you. I don't know what you do. You've lost your focus. And I think the key is to stay focused. And so, you know, if you go back to how I said growth, it's, you know, why do you exist? What are your values? Which the high level things, but then what is it you do? Or, you know, Clayton Christian at Harvard used to say, what is the job people hire you to do? That's what they're doing is they're hiring you to do a job for them. What is that job and always focus on that. And then who is your core customer and really know who your core customer is. And one of the criteria, core customers often speak to people say, who's your core customer? And they tell me it's so-and-so and I'm like, so what's their profitability. Like, I don't know. Can they be your core customer? Your core customer is somebody who enables you to make a real profit, optimal profit. They refer you. They're a pleasure to work with. They don't suck up your team and they don't create chaos. Those are the things you need to look at. And then what is your value promise? What do you promise these people you are going to give them thats quantifiable? And if you really develop those and stick with those metrics, you don't get lost. And I think we all get lost because we lose focus. We are either desperate for revenue. We're desperate to cut costs. We're looking for something when there's a stress or we're stressed.
You know, when we're stressed, we lose focus. And I think if we can retain that focus and really drive that focus for the whole organization, it leads to a better success. You know, going back to Herb Keller, it was wheels up, but these other things, his profit per X was profit per airplane. So if you consider that, revenues, how much revenue can we squeeze into a plate? But if it's profit per plane is how fast can we turn it? How fast can we, you know, everything relates to everything we do with that plane to get it from A to B. And if we're measuring that everybody in the whole system knows, I got to get that cost per plane down, or the revenue per plane up. And you just get that central fourth process going and it just gets very fixed.
Mike O'Neill: Marc, I want to make sure I heard what you said correctly. I probably don't remember it, but it's something to the effect of if you're doing it. Everything you're doing nothing.
Marc Borrelli: Right? So, if somebody wants said to me, and it was a great line, he said, you have to be famous for something. And if you're famous for too many things, you're famous for nothing, because I don't know what you do. We humans have. Yeah, we've all seen it. We all get the emails. We've all seen the books. Five ways to grow your business three ways to do the seven. Why are they all numbers? Because we remember numbers, the smaller, the number, if I said 450 ways to do your business, nobody read it.
Mike O'Neill: Right.
Marc Borrelli: So again, if I go to the CEO and say what do you do, and I get this long list. Yes, he does all those things, but can you bring it down to an overarching concept? You know, going back, I love Southwest going back. What was Southwestern? They were getting business people home for dinner. That's all they did. It's traveling, salesman home for dinner. And their choice was their competitive set was guys going to take a bus or a taxi or something like that for long distance. So if you get that simplicity. And then people know exactly what you do and they know why I should refer you. And when you talk to people that like I had that problem. I mean, I know it's an old cliché, but people don't buy drill bits, they buy holes and we don't think enough about that. It's what is it that, what is the problem they're trying to solve that you've been helped with and stay focused on that? That is the key.
Mike O'Neill: So you shared an example where clients had gotten stuck because they were trying to do everything instead of the main thing the holes, if you would. Might there be any examples where maybe Marc got stuck?
Marc Borrelli: Well, I got stuck on that one. I lost focus number of times in my business, in my business life. Usually it was chasing too many opportunities and not being disciplined in this is what I do, and this is what I do best. And being in wanting to say, I can do it. Yeah, I can do a lot of things. I can't do everything. So I think that's one, two is, you know, for a lot of people starting as well, we don't believe in our value.
Mike O'Neill: What do you mean by that?
Marc Borrelli: So I'll give you a perfect example. So a client calls you a potential client, calls you up and says, Hey, I'm thinking of doing X with you. What's your fee. And a lot of business owners I'll go and I'm making up numbers now so forgive me. But they're like, okay, so my fee for this job is 20,000. Oh, that's expensive. Maybe I should only charge him 10 or I need a bit more, maybe 12. We're already negotiating with ourselves. And the issue isn't, what's the cost of it is what's the value you're delivering. If you're going to save them a million dollars, the fee could be 200,000. You know, we've got to get out of negotiating with ourselves, trying to justify it on an hourly basis. And truly understanding the value, what we deliver, but sometimes you don't deliver any value. And then you got to realize, Hey, nobody's going to pay me for this.
Mike O'Neill: Hmm. I love this example. So don't negotiate necessarily with yourself because you will do nothing but negotiate down but focus on the value you're bringing. And you're speaking from firsthand experience.
Marc Borrelli: Oh yeah. And you know, many times when I started, I'd been negotiating against myself for hours before I ever put anything in front of the client, I'd already taken it down half way. And, you know, without understanding what their budget was without thinking about what the value was, I was going to present to them. I mean, you know, you've truly got understand what is the cost of their next best alternative, and that's where you need to be pricing and not what you think, you know, stop negotiating with yourself. Be confident.
Mike O'Neill: So Marc, as a business growth coach, when you step back and look at what you do, what gives you the biggest sense of satisfaction?
Marc Borrelli: No. It's great question, because I was talking with a client yesterday and he's been a client for three years. He came to me, they were barely making 2 million. They're going to do five and a half this year. They've got processes, structure. They're building a great team as they growing. And he's just so happy with where he is. And to me, that is. That's all. I need to see them achieve that and work with them. And each year, get plans going further and working on different things to help them maintain that growth. It's just great. And looking at new ways, you know, when COVID hit looking at their business and saying, okay, how do we adjust? How do we pivot? How do we maintain? You know, what is our specialty? What is the job we do, but why do we make it work in this environment? And how do we do when this environment's over as they come out of COVID? So that to me is the greatest thing. I love to see people succeed.
Mike O'Neill: It shows in your face, and I can hear it in your voice. You love what you do. And it sounds as if what you do, has a significant impact with your clients. You know, Marc, has you kind of reflect on what we've discussed, as we've recorded this podcast, what do you want our listeners to have as takeaway.
Marc Borrelli: I think a couple of things I would say is really work with a coach. I didn't, for many years, I I'll be honest. I was approached by a vistage group and a coach when I was in my forties and I was an arrogant know-it-all and 50, when I was 50, I was very humble and I realized how much a coach could help, two get focused. and three, sometimes when it all looks bleak rip up the playbook and start again with the original focus you had. But just say, if we didn't do it this way, how can we do it better? I remember working with a company many years ago and their business nearly gone broke. They ripped up the playbook. They started from scratch. And as a result, they had twice the profitability of anybody in their industry. Every employee could tell you the story, they owned it. They believed in it and they sold for a multiple of over three times anybody else's in the industry. So, you know, stay focused on the core things and then adjust all the way down.
Mike O'Neill: We've packed a lot into our time together. And so I'm confident that folks watching or listening to this would like to learn more. What's the best way for folks to connect with you.
Marc Borrelli: They can go to my website, which is marcborrelli.com. That's a long word. I know it's MARC, B O R R E L L I n.com. And you can click on connect. There's making a, appointment to meet with me virtually, chat with anybody I'm always willing to listen and help, you know, Coaching I said is for a lot of everybody, I think, but not every coach is every body and we may meet and you decide I'm not your guy. I'm happy to refer you to others to speak to, or let you go your own way. But I'm just trying to help people. If I can add value to everybody in every meeting I have, I've achieved a good day.
Mike O'Neill: Marc we've had several conversations and this time together, just kind of punctuates what value I think you would bring to folks. We will include your contact information, in the show notes. Thank you for your time today.
Marc Borrelli: Thank you, Mike. It's been a pleasure. I really enjoyed it.
Mike O'Neill: Well, I've enjoyed it as well. And I also want to thank our listeners for joining us for this episode of Get Unstuck & On Target. Every Thursday, we upload the latest episode to all the major platforms. So if you haven't already. Please subscribe. You know, life really is too short to let business problems keep you up at night. So if you've been listening to my conversation with Marc and you're realizing that something's keeping your business stuck, let's talk. You can go to our website, bench-builders.com or just go to your browser and type unstuck.show to schedule a quick call. So I'd like to thank you for joining us, and I hope you have picked up on some tips to help you Get Unstuck & On Target. Until next time.